Interesting ladder test results. Ideas?

[Deputy819]

Now i just need to find a place to shoot and buy a target cam. Lol

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[Stgraves260]

Guess I do my ladder test differently than most people. I have never used a chronograph to help with my accuracy. When the bullet hits the paper it will tell me all I need to know how accurate it is. When I did a 260 Rem I loaded 1 bullet each of 40 grains 40.5- 41-41.5 - 42 - 42.5 - 43 - 43.5 - 44. I put a orange circle on a piece of paper. After every shot I walked down to the target and marked what the powder charge was. By walking down range it allowed my barrel to stay cool. It helps you with your patience as well. 41 - 41.5 - 42.5 grains showed promise so I loaded up 5 rounds each. I went back to only 100 yards to see which one was more accurate. 42.5 was the best. That's when I started messaging w/ seating depth. Now I can get 10 rounds in one hole at 100 yards. At 700 yards I can hold a 1/2 " 3 shot group. I figure as long as I can hold less than a 3 shot 1" group at 700 yards I'm doing something right.

 

[Stgraves260]

Hope this helps

 

[ButterBean]

Guess I do my ladder test differently than most people. I have never used a chronograph to help with my accuracy. When the bullet hits the paper it will tell me all I need to know how accurate it is. When I did a 260 Rem I loaded 1 bullet each of 40 grains 40.5- 41-41.5 - 42 - 42.5 - 43 - 43.5 - 44. I put a orange circle on a piece of paper. After every shot I walked down to the target and marked what the powder charge was. By walking down range it allowed my barrel to stay cool. It helps you with your patience as well. 41 - 41.5 - 42.5 grains showed promise so I loaded up 5 rounds each. I went back to only 100 yards to see which one was more accurate. 42.5 was the best. That's when I started messaging w/ seating depth. Now I can get 10 rounds in one hole at 100 yards. At 700 yards I can hold a 1/2 " 3 shot group. I figure as long as I can hold less than a 3 shot 1" group at 700 yards I'm doing something right.

ShoNuff, I've had loads that were dead nuts accurate and when I finally got a chrono they looked like a dumpster fire

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Lots of good ways to do load development. I think they are probably all proper / correct. If I were smart I would be recommending some of them over what we do. I would sell more bullets.

Here is my method. I rarely work in increments less than 1g. Only in small cartridges. I run a ladder with one shot per charge all aimed at the same spot. I prefer to work at 200y min as it makes the target more meaningful. Although the target is secondary data in the ladder. If I can see a target that is close to moa for the ladder, even though there was a range in vel of 200 fps, then I know the rifle likes the combo.

The main goal in this ladder is to find pressure. Also I want to see nice consistent, predictable increase in vel with each charge. Consistent increase with each charge almost always produce great loads. I like to start low and work up feeling the rifle with each charge. Some rifles or brass show ejector marks or flat primers with mild loads. No single indicator alone tells the pressure story. All things together tell the story. Vel and change in bolt lift are the two that I pay the most attention to. Low velocity indicates low pressure. High velocity indicates high pressure. Again all things together. If in doubt if your pressure is high, decapping a fired case and re-primming to feel pocket tightness is a good way to tell. Loose primer pocket, pressure is too high. I want to find pressure so I know where it is and back off from it according to how hard I hit it.

If the ladder is loose on the target I generally abandon the combo and move on. Harder in today's supplies situation.

Once I have found the top end and backed off to comfortable, then I shoot multiple of the same charge. Checking for es and accuracy. Accuracy is much more important than es. If ladder was consistent going up, es is almost always low. Usually at this point we are done and zero the rifle and head out to confirm drops. My personal accuracy expectation is solid sub moa. I don't feel the need to tinker for better. We have yet to see solid sub moa at short range fall apart at long range.

Typically a Hammer Hunter, or Power Hammer will net 50-100 fps more than conventional lead core bullets of the same weight. Depends on the rifle.

 

[powermax]

Typically a Hammer Hunter, or Power Hammer will net 50-100 fps more than conventional lead core bullets of the same weight. Depends on the rifle.

With using the same powder charge?

Is it safe to post how many grains of powder typically over published rate before seeing pressure, shooting HH or PH bullets?

 

[ButterBean]

Lots of good ways to do load development. I think they are probably all proper / correct. If I were smart I would be recommending some of them over what we do. I would sell more bullets.

Here is my method. I rarely work in increments less than 1g. Only in small cartridges. I run a ladder with one shot per charge all aimed at the same spot. I prefer to work at 200y min as it makes the target more meaningful. Although the target is secondary data in the ladder. If I can see a target that is close to moa for the ladder, even though there was a range in vel of 200 fps, then I know the rifle likes the combo.

The main goal in this ladder is to find pressure. Also I want to see nice consistent, predictable increase in vel with each charge. Consistent increase with each charge almost always produce great loads. I like to start low and work up feeling the rifle with each charge. Some rifles or brass show ejector marks or flat primers with mild loads. No single indicator alone tells the pressure story. All things together tell the story. Vel and change in bolt lift are the two that I pay the most attention to. Low velocity indicates low pressure. High velocity indicates high pressure. Again all things together. If in doubt if your pressure is high, decapping a fired case and re-primming to feel pocket tightness is a good way to tell. Loose primer pocket, pressure is too high. I want to find pressure so I know where it is and back off from it according to how hard I hit it.

If the ladder is loose on the target I generally abandon the combo and move on. Harder in today's supplies situation.

Once I have found the top end and backed off to comfortable, then I shoot multiple of the same charge. Checking for es and accuracy. Accuracy is much more important than es. If ladder was consistent going up, es is almost always low. Usually at this point we are done and zero the rifle and head out to confirm drops. My personal accuracy expectation is solid sub moa. I don't feel the need to tinker for better. We have yet to see solid sub moa at short range fall apart at long range.

Typically a Hammer Hunter, or Power Hammer will net 50-100 fps more than conventional lead core bullets of the same weight. Depends on the rifle.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ShoNuff ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[RockyMtnMT]

With using the same powder charge?

Is it safe to post how many grains of powder typically over published rate before seeing pressure, shooting HH or PH bullets?

Usually not with the same charge. Lower engraving pressure if the Hammers will often go over published lead core data. Depends on how conservative the data. I like to start with the published start. Only costs a couple extra shots.

Also every rifle is diff. Loaded a 300 rum yesterday and used data from factory rifles that we loaded previously. This was our gathered ladder data. The load I started with wound up being where we stayed. Brand new custom rifle. Wound up about 5g less powder than previous. I think we will wind up going higher after the rifle has more shots, but will stick here for the trip to Africa in a month.

Nosler data is typically hotter and lines up pretty close. Hodgdon more conservative.

Loaded a 300 Wby yesterday with the 124g Hammer Hunter. This little bullet with only 3 drive bands went significantly higher than Hodgdon data for 125g bullet. Wound up settling with rl15.5 at 3825 fps comfortably. 400 fps higher than Hodgdon data with no pressure signs.

Typically a couple grains over. I personally don't start high and I do not recommend starting high. It can sometimes be too high. Not worth beating open a bolt.

 

[SWHandldr]

Keep in mind these are just the components they gave me with their rifles. Trying to make the best of it to help them out.

Understood. And would have never thought that brass from a major maker would vary so widely in weight.

Regardless whether Nosler adjusted their original charges for cartridge weight, they have to know that brass for this cartridge is rare and the probability of it being reloaded is high. I find that worrisome.

I weigh brass, period. Your post is imo confirmation it's sound practice. It's time consuming and boring but provides useful information - at least to me.

When I bought 100 6.5 CM cases from Peterson, I was pleased to see how uniform they were in weight (under 3% IIRC). Similarly, pre-Covid I bought 100 ea. Privi Partizan cases for 30-30 Win and .22 Hornet and was surprised at how small the weight spread was and the overall quality. Would buy again.

 

[aschler]

Ladders have zero to do with velocity, your looking at vertical dispersion and a
" node". In a 28 I would do .4 spread on powder. Do 2 shots and look for almost grouping with those spreads and were it climbs again.
Most of the time theres a lower " node" and a higher one. I never do any kind of load development at 100 yards anymore. Not in my LR hunting rifles anyway.
Target tells you everything.

In this context, ladders are a generic term for load development using progresssively higher charges. If there are "n" shooters, there are "n+1" different methods to shoot ladders. For example, my ladders are shot at approximately 8 meters because it is the distance from the back porch to an acceptable backstop.

 

[Stgraves260]

ShoNuff, I've had loads that were dead nuts accurate and when I finally got a chrono they looked like a dumpster fire

Were they dead nuts as you say accurate at 100 yards or at your longer distances? If you are talking 100 FPS spread at 100 yards you can still hold a tight group. If your talking a 100 FPS spread difference at say 1000 yards than there would be a substantial difference. I choose 700 yards to critique my powder charges and my seating depth. People use different methods to get sometimes the same results. Nothing wrong with using a chronograph if that's what you like. They are good for if you have access to say a 100 yard range. That way if you ever have a chance to shoot longer distances at least you know your velocity to plug into your range finder or what ever device you are using. I have a 12" steel target I shoot at with a 2 1/2 " circle in the center of it. I go back to my 700 yards and adjust my scope until I get 3 shots in the circle. I then plug those MOAs that were used on my scope into my range finder and it gives me my velocity. After that I verify my data at different yards. I use this method because it works for me. I've shot out to 2300 yards this way. When the bullets hit the target and you walk don't there and see the impact, no one can say you missed. If you use a chronograph to get your velocity and you know your exact FPS doesn't mean you can go out and hit a target at 1000 plus's yards. There is nothing more frustrating than going down to my shooting range in Mingus Texas TacPro ( 1000 yard range ) and the first thing people want to talk about is how fast their bullets are traveling, then they get bent all out of shape because they can hit that 36" target they have down range at 1000 yards.

 

[med358-boise]

Stgraves,

Doesn't your approach assume that the published BC for your bullet is 100% accurate as well as the click adjustments are 100% exactly 1/4 MOA correct? What I am getting at is why are you more comfortable deriving velocity which will be applied to vaious differences?

It would seem no matter the situation used you have to vaildate your click adjustements at multiple distances.

 

[Nevrsummr]

Unfortunately, a friend reminded me that i wrore each charge on the brass and encouraged me to double check my findings. When comparing the charges to the velocity i found out that the 3 shot group with high velocity was the old brass not the new. So now im back to wondering where the spike came from.

 

[Calvin45]

I would submit you know nothing about 78.2, 78.4, & 78.6. 1 data point tells you nothing.

For this reason, I find the ladder method close to useless.

Even if you are using a digital dispenser, the specification of that device is +/- .1 grain. That means what you think was a 78.9 load could have been a 78.8 load or a 79.0 load. An ES of less than 15 is pretty good. What if 78.2 @ 3299 was at the low end of the average and 78.4 for at 3315 was at the high-end so the actual averages for the those two charge weights is 3306 and 3308.

Neversummr this is not directed at you personally but I am always baffled by what I call the "Rules of Internet Statistics" where 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.

If it were me, I would use the OCW method and for a case that big load in .6 increments starting around 75.8 and look for two consectuive loads that have similar POIs and similar group size.

Agreed...heck even my not that enormous .300 win mag I dont think I've ever messed around with increments smaller than 0.5 grains, at least not during load work up