Improving the 308 Win performance

If you go up in altitude then every bullet gives a better calculated result added velocity and down range energy and we can extend our distance. I just see what people think. I know the data that was shown was for a shot around 6000ft. Typical elk hunting elevation. Also I seen mule deer actually higher than the elk in some areas.
I'm sending you data for the 175BD2 at 4500 feet. See the pic below. Of course, if you use a larger 30 cal case such as a WSM YOU WILL HAVE MORE ENERGY DOWN RANGE FROM THE HIGHER MV. You can recalculate at 6000 ft also.

Forgot to mention that these bullets will open very reliably at 1700fps impact velocity
 

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I guess I was just asking for people's opinion on what they thought like mule deer or elk. I think a lot would say something like 1200ft/lbs of energy and some will say 1800fps. Some might say less or some might say more. I'm fishing for what people think is a worthy velocity and energy.
 
I had a successful Oryx hunt on Friday. I ended up harvesting a 38.5"x39.5" cow on the first day. It was a great time and good memories made with my 12-year-old son and longtime best hunting buddy. The shot was 580 yards on the nose, my dope was spot on as the bullet impacted exactly where I intended vertically. The bullet did impact a little further back than I wanted. There was a puff of wind, 3-5 mph, so I either pulled the shot a little, wind barely got me or a combination of both. If you zoom in to the picture with the oryx, you can see the impact. I have attached several photographs; they are not in order of the story, but you can go look at them as you read.

So you don't have to go back, the rifle is a 308 Winchester 26" barrel, 150 BD 2, 47.7 grains LVR powder, 3037 fps. The gun is shooting an honest 3/4 MOA at 600 yards.

The bullet entered the left side, behind the shoulder. You can see the impact in the picture. It is in the crease of the front shoulder where the blood is. Disregard the blood on top of her back, that is where she flung her head and blood landed there. The bullet did impact a rib on the way in. If you look at the picture of the inside of the rib, it appears the bullet started too immediately open, or some rib bone tore that flesh. The diameter of the wound was greater than a 1/2". From what I can tell, between the petals and the shank of the bullet, the lungs and liver were the vital organs that caught most of the damage caused by the bullet. You can tell in the pictures that both were impacted pretty severely. I was unable to locate any of petals but did find the shank of the bullet resting on the far side just under the ribs. The bullet did not penetrate into the far side ribs. The bullet did open to a diameter of .459" and lost 3 of the 4 petals completely. You can see one of the photos, a partial petal is still attached to bullet. This petal did lose a significant amount of its overall length, but the base stayed intact. The bullet ended up with an overall length of .871" from its original length of 1.385".

The shot and animal behavior after impact:
As said before, the shot was 580 yards. I was kneeling off of a RRS tripod. Grass is tall this year, you'd have to get pretty good elevation to go prone, I never even attached my bipod. The good thing about a 308 shooting a 150-grain bullet is the recoil, or lack thereof. Off of my tripod I was able to watch the initial reactions of the oryx when the bullet impacted. Her front legs buckled, and she kicked her back legs like a mule then took off fairly quickly. My buddy, son nor I ever heard an audible "whoop" of the bullet when it impacted. I am not sure if this always common with copper bullets or an anomaly. I had a real hard time hearing them impact steel as well if you go back and read my other post. So, the oryx took off, ran about 75 yards and bedded down, not went down, bedded down. We watched her for a bit then she stood back up and wandered another 75 or so yards and stopped. At this point she was around 700 yards. I had full intentions of only shooting this combo a max of 500 yards but built my dope card to 600, just in case, and didn't have any dopes for 700 with me. I had my kestrel in my truck so no luck there either. I did not get another shot but she did bed down again. My buddy stayed behind and my son and I walked closer. My buddy that stayed behind was able to walk us in to where she was located. We got to about 100 yards of the oryx and noticed she still had her head up but was really wobbly. I went ahead and put another bullet in her. With the grass being tall and me being afraid to shoot grass, I held too high and actually shot her through the hump or those familiar with oryx, known as no man's land. There is nothing up there vital. The oryx did expire fairly quickly after this shot, but looking at the damage, it probably did not contribute much to her death. The first shot had done its job, it was just not immediate. The second bullet was a pass through, and the exit can actually be seen in the photograph if you look just under the buttstock on my rifle.

Overall impressions:
This is a sample of one so I cannot say definitively until I put some more bullets on critters. May have a chance for them to harvest some ewe barbary sheep in February so that may give more results. Overall, I was quite happy with the way they shot and they way they performed. I am extremely happy with LVR and the 308 Winchester velocities. I am not getting into the debates that have happened in this thread but if you want more velocity in your 308 it's worth a look. I would have like to have hit this oryx on the shoulder and see what the bullet would have done, but the petals coming off definitely helped by causing trauma to the liver and the lungs. I was happy to see that the bullet started to open as soon as it did. I have never worried about penetration with an all-copper bullet but have had my worries about the ability to expand. It seems this bullet did both pretty well. I would have thought it would have penetrated the opposite side rib cage, but bullets do weird things so who knows why it didn't. My kestrel says at 580 yards, I had 2186 fps and 1592 ft lbs of energy when that bullet reached its intended target. I will definitely shoot more critters with this bullet and will probably start loading it for my daughters 308. I would not be afraid to use this combination out to 500 yards on anything I hunt in NM. I may give the 175 a whirl in my 300 wsm. From my sample of one, I will continue to use them.

NRAlifer- thanks for sharing your knowledge and what you have learned from LVR and the 308. I would not have tried it had you not posted what you guys were finding. I would have just shot this oryx with the boring accurate combo of a 300 wsm and 175 berger vld. Thanks!
 

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Have they changed the design of this bullet? I thought they only shed petals at very high impact velocity. At 2200 FPS I didn't think they would shed petals. Personally I like that it did. Those petals do a lot of damage.
 
I had a successful Oryx hunt on Friday. I ended up harvesting a 38.5"x39.5" cow on the first day. It was a great time and good memories made with my 12-year-old son and longtime best hunting buddy. The shot was 580 yards on the nose, my dope was spot on as the bullet impacted exactly where I intended vertically. The bullet did impact a little further back than I wanted. There was a puff of wind, 3-5 mph, so I either pulled the shot a little, wind barely got me or a combination of both. If you zoom in to the picture with the oryx, you can see the impact. I have attached several photographs; they are not in order of the story, but you can go look at them as you read.

So you don't have to go back, the rifle is a 308 Winchester 26" barrel, 150 BD 2, 47.7 grains LVR powder, 3037 fps. The gun is shooting an honest 3/4 MOA at 600 yards.

The bullet entered the left side, behind the shoulder. You can see the impact in the picture. It is in the crease of the front shoulder where the blood is. Disregard the blood on top of her back, that is where she flung her head and blood landed there. The bullet did impact a rib on the way in. If you look at the picture of the inside of the rib, it appears the bullet started too immediately open, or some rib bone tore that flesh. The diameter of the wound was greater than a 1/2". From what I can tell, between the petals and the shank of the bullet, the lungs and liver were the vital organs that caught most of the damage caused by the bullet. You can tell in the pictures that both were impacted pretty severely. I was unable to locate any of petals but did find the shank of the bullet resting on the far side just under the ribs. The bullet did not penetrate into the far side ribs. The bullet did open to a diameter of .459" and lost 3 of the 4 petals completely. You can see one of the photos, a partial petal is still attached to bullet. This petal did lose a significant amount of its overall length, but the base stayed intact. The bullet ended up with an overall length of .871" from its original length of 1.385".

The shot and animal behavior after impact:
As said before, the shot was 580 yards. I was kneeling off of a RRS tripod. Grass is tall this year, you'd have to get pretty good elevation to go prone, I never even attached my bipod. The good thing about a 308 shooting a 150-grain bullet is the recoil, or lack thereof. Off of my tripod I was able to watch the initial reactions of the oryx when the bullet impacted. Her front legs buckled, and she kicked her back legs like a mule then took off fairly quickly. My buddy, son nor I ever heard an audible "whoop" of the bullet when it impacted. I am not sure if this always common with copper bullets or an anomaly. I had a real hard time hearing them impact steel as well if you go back and read my other post. So, the oryx took off, ran about 75 yards and bedded down, not went down, bedded down. We watched her for a bit then she stood back up and wandered another 75 or so yards and stopped. At this point she was around 700 yards. I had full intentions of only shooting this combo a max of 500 yards but built my dope card to 600, just in case, and didn't have any dopes for 700 with me. I had my kestrel in my truck so no luck there either. I did not get another shot but she did bed down again. My buddy stayed behind and my son and I walked closer. My buddy that stayed behind was able to walk us in to where she was located. We got to about 100 yards of the oryx and noticed she still had her head up but was really wobbly. I went ahead and put another bullet in her. With the grass being tall and me being afraid to shoot grass, I held too high and actually shot her through the hump or those familiar with oryx, known as no man's land. There is nothing up there vital. The oryx did expire fairly quickly after this shot, but looking at the damage, it probably did not contribute much to her death. The first shot had done its job, it was just not immediate. The second bullet was a pass through, and the exit can actually be seen in the photograph if you look just under the buttstock on my rifle.

Overall impressions:
This is a sample of one so I cannot say definitively until I put some more bullets on critters. May have a chance for them to harvest some ewe barbary sheep in February so that may give more results. Overall, I was quite happy with the way they shot and they way they performed. I am extremely happy with LVR and the 308 Winchester velocities. I am not getting into the debates that have happened in this thread but if you want more velocity in your 308 it's worth a look. I would have like to have hit this oryx on the shoulder and see what the bullet would have done, but the petals coming off definitely helped by causing trauma to the liver and the lungs. I was happy to see that the bullet started to open as soon as it did. I have never worried about penetration with an all-copper bullet but have had my worries about the ability to expand. It seems this bullet did both pretty well. I would have thought it would have penetrated the opposite side rib cage, but bullets do weird things so who knows why it didn't. My kestrel says at 580 yards, I had 2186 fps and 1592 ft lbs of energy when that bullet reached its intended target. I will definitely shoot more critters with this bullet and will probably start loading it for my daughters 308. I would not be afraid to use this combination out to 500 yards on anything I hunt in NM. I may give the 175 a whirl in my 300 wsm. From my sample of one, I will continue to use them.

NRAlifer- thanks for sharing your knowledge and what you have learned from LVR and the 308. I would not have tried it had you not posted what you guys were finding. I would have just shot this oryx with the boring accurate combo of a 300 wsm and 175 berger vld. Thanks!
Yours is a superb and well documented account of the shot. To me it appears as though the bullet at entering caught over half the rib. The surviving expansion pattern suggests exactly what you observed. That damage to the liver and lung looks very extensive, and the off center attitude of the expanded area suggests a considerable impact with the rib bending the distal shank a bit. Very likely this caused the bullet to tumble some as it passed through the lung and liver accounting for the damage and leading to more energy loss in that path. You did, however get full organ penetration which is what counts. Great job! At what altitude were you?
 
Yours is a superb and well documented account of the shot. To me it appears as though the bullet at entering caught over half the rib. The surviving expansion pattern suggests exactly what you observed. That damage to the liver and lung looks very extensive, and the off center attitude of the expanded area suggests a considerable impact with the rib bending the distal shank a bit. Very likely this caused the bullet to tumble some as it passed through the lung and liver accounting for the damage and leading to more energy loss in that path. You did, however get full organ penetration which is what counts. Great job! At what altitude were you?
Elevation was approximately 5000 ft.
 
Have they changed the design of this bullet? I thought they only shed petals at very high impact velocity. At 2200 FPS I didn't think they would shed petals. Personally I like that it did. Those petals do a lot of damage.
I am unsure if and how they changed their design. nralifer would be the one to answer that question for you. I agree, shedding the petals seemed to help with overall trauma.
 
Have they changed the design of this bullet? I thought they only shed petals at very high impact velocity. At 2200 FPS I didn't think they would shed petals. Personally I like that it did. Those petals do a lot of damage.
From his description and the photo of the entrance hole the bullet impacted a rib first at a just under 2200 fps. Not surprising there were some petals knocked off.
 
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I am unsure if and how they changed their design. nralifer would be the one to answer that question for you. I agree, shedding the petals seemed to help with overall trauma.
The petals I think partially shed at that impact speed because the bullet hit a rib at a bit of an oblique angle and as a result initiated tumbling and extensive organ damage. Nevertheless the expansion of the bullet was excellent being about 1.5calibers, also organ penetration was complete. The reason the animal did not die that quickly is that the diaphragm was ripped away, opening the chest and abdominal spaces to each other. That prevents a tension pneumothorax from developing because air escaping from the injured lung is not trapped in a confined smaller space and blood flow in the lung at that level is low precluding rapid exsanguination. The liver has only about 10-15 % of the cardiac, so it will bleed at a less rapid, dropping the blood pressure slowly permitting persistent brain perfusion and preventing rapid loss of consciousness. The wound is a fatal one eventually, as was described.
 

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