Hello all, I have a question and this may be my first post. There is lots of good information on here btw. I would like to increase my rifles accuracy and reliability by getting a new stock. I am shocked how much they cost too. This is going to be for a hunting rifle so the choices must be light. So far I like the mcmillan classic or the remington titanium take off stock. It is a rem 700 bdl ss in 7 mag (all stock). I realize the factory tupperware stock has lots of play in it(not rigid) and would like a rigid stock to improve groups and performance. Is the rem. Titanium stock for 180 bucks shipped a big enough improvement over the tupperware or should I save my pennies for a mcmillan stock? They cost something like 375 for a black painted one. Thanks for the info, Nathan
Improvement?
- Thread starter NathanW
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Nathan,
First off, welcome to LRH!!
Concerning the stocks, remember that anytime you go to a light weight stock design you are going to give up rigiditiy in the stock. Just the nature of the beast.
I would personally recommend saving and getting a McMillan as it will offer better performance compared to the Rem stock. IT will be well worth your extra money. Also get the stock pillar bedded as well.
Kirby Allen(50)
First off, welcome to LRH!!
Concerning the stocks, remember that anytime you go to a light weight stock design you are going to give up rigiditiy in the stock. Just the nature of the beast.
I would personally recommend saving and getting a McMillan as it will offer better performance compared to the Rem stock. IT will be well worth your extra money. Also get the stock pillar bedded as well.
Kirby Allen(50)
Kenster-Boy
Well-Known Member
Kirby knows much more about this long range stuff than I do but I was somewhat supprised at how he answered the question.
From my limited knowlege I must say that there are other things that could be done to the rifle to make it more accurate than just changing the stock. especially for the price of 375.
But go with what kirby said since his IS the long range gunsmith.
From my limited knowlege I must say that there are other things that could be done to the rifle to make it more accurate than just changing the stock. especially for the price of 375.
But go with what kirby said since his IS the long range gunsmith.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
7mmag Man,
I would certainly agree with you about there is alot that can be done to turn up the rifle for long range shooting but the stock was the only thing in question so thats what I commented on.
The simplest things I would recommend after the restocking, recrown the muzzle, lap the bolt lugs and tune the trigger to a clean break.
Other then that, if someone wants to get more involved in accurizing a rifle, I highly recommend rebarreling with a top end barrel and fully accurize the receiver.
But doing this takes what sounds like a simple project and turns it into a full custom rifle.
Just answering the question posed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Kirby Allen(50)
I would certainly agree with you about there is alot that can be done to turn up the rifle for long range shooting but the stock was the only thing in question so thats what I commented on.
The simplest things I would recommend after the restocking, recrown the muzzle, lap the bolt lugs and tune the trigger to a clean break.
Other then that, if someone wants to get more involved in accurizing a rifle, I highly recommend rebarreling with a top end barrel and fully accurize the receiver.
But doing this takes what sounds like a simple project and turns it into a full custom rifle.
Just answering the question posed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Kirby Allen(50)
Well, the rifle has a light crisp 3 lb trigger pull. It has a decent scope (vari-x IIc) and leupold dual dovetail rings. It is not a long range or precision rifle, just needs to be a good hunting rig out to 400 yards. Currently, it will shoot two bullets right next to each other and one pulls about .75 inch away or so. Groups are just over 1 moa. I would like it to shoot .5 moa. This is using federal 160 partitions since I dont handload. I could get a new crown but I think a new stock and floating the barrel would do more for me. Whats the consensus there? Nathan
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Float the barrel first and see if that helps. It costs nothing unless you have to go to Sears and get a rasp for $5
Try waiting about 8-10 minutes before firing the third shot. Time cost nothing. A colder barrel may bring the third one back in. I cannot ever remember firing three shots at a deer unless the third was when I walked up and finished it off. If I can't make the hit by two shots then I quit because something (usually my brain) is not working right.
I know we are all fixated on being able to claim small groups but it is that first shot out of the cold barrel that counts. Go read about Kirby and the coyote. No third shot needed. Knowing that your gun walks is only a ego problem. It is not a hunting problem.
When I dial in a gun that walks it may take me more than an hour to shoot a single group, but when I am through I know that it is a cold barrel group.
The other advice I would give you is that if you have never glass bedded a gun now is the time. You are planning on replacing this stock anyway so if you screw it up there is no loss, unless of course, you do what I did the first time and glue the gun in. That only gets to be funny after many years later.
Try waiting about 8-10 minutes before firing the third shot. Time cost nothing. A colder barrel may bring the third one back in. I cannot ever remember firing three shots at a deer unless the third was when I walked up and finished it off. If I can't make the hit by two shots then I quit because something (usually my brain) is not working right.
I know we are all fixated on being able to claim small groups but it is that first shot out of the cold barrel that counts. Go read about Kirby and the coyote. No third shot needed. Knowing that your gun walks is only a ego problem. It is not a hunting problem.
When I dial in a gun that walks it may take me more than an hour to shoot a single group, but when I am through I know that it is a cold barrel group.
The other advice I would give you is that if you have never glass bedded a gun now is the time. You are planning on replacing this stock anyway so if you screw it up there is no loss, unless of course, you do what I did the first time and glue the gun in. That only gets to be funny after many years later.
marlow 243
Well-Known Member
Im not trying to step on any toseI think you should try getting a HS stock send it to RW HART LET THE DO THERE accr,deal for 200$ witch includes bedding crowning truing the bolt 3lb trigger . It by anyway shape or form would compare to kirby or chris ect. I tried it with a erm. adl 2506 with great results. Im just throwing an idea that is around $450 tosee if thats what you want. Then get one of the bad *** to build you a custum. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I have thought about trying to bed the rifle but I am a bit scared to try it myself. It seems fairly easy though. i would like to learn so it doesnt cost me 50 bucks per gun I buy in the future. I guess all thats involved is to drill holes in the tupperware stock and open up the barrel channel to float the barrel then ruff up the stock and clean with acetone. Next I bed the back and front area up to recoil lug. Can someone list the supplies needed(all of them including simple things) Also where can you get a cheap torque wrench to retorque the action screws to specifications? Nathan
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Here are some threads of interest:
Somewhere and I cannot find it at the moment is a very, very good discussion on different ways to bed stocks.
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
Freefloating
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post76437
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
torque
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
Don't go and buy a torque wrench for you action screws. Unless you are planning on winning money, just tighten the sucker down good and shoot it.
None of this is a miracle cure and neither is a new stock. It is mostly just something to do to have some fun during February and March when the weather is miserable.
Somewhere and I cannot find it at the moment is a very, very good discussion on different ways to bed stocks.
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
Freefloating
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post76437
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
torque
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1
Don't go and buy a torque wrench for you action screws. Unless you are planning on winning money, just tighten the sucker down good and shoot it.
None of this is a miracle cure and neither is a new stock. It is mostly just something to do to have some fun during February and March when the weather is miserable.
I'd highly reccomend a High Tech Specialties riflestock made by Mark Bansner. I have one on my ultralight .340Wby and it is extremely rigid. Plus it retails for $210.00 I'd choose it over an HS Precision or a Brown. Good Luck
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
I would suggest these steps. Bed that action and free float the barrel. That barrel hump is not my idea of accuracy.
Get a Lee collet neck die and size your fired brass with that. BR prep brass like trimming to same length, inside outside deburr, remove flash from primer hole. Always use brass from the same lot. I am using Rem brass with great results.
Ensure that runout of ammo is as low as possible. Work up loads using MATCH primers (Fed 215M) and extruded powders. Mine just love Re25 and 162gr SST/AMax. I want to try Retumbo next. IMR7828 and H1000 proved too fast in my rifles.
I bet that with a little tuning as above, your rifle will shoot as good as you want the way it is. Just open up the foreend so that there is plenty of space around the barrel.
Foreend rigidity plays a very small role in LR accuracy because it doesn't touch the barrel (squeeze the barrel into the stock with your hand, it should not touch). Also, rest the rifle in the same place everytime and watch your shooting form. I like to rest the rifle just in front of the action. This is the most rigid spot on any stock and where I would be holding it anyways.
If the shooting is consistently first two touching and third flyer, your barrel is warping as it heats up. The bedding and freefloating will help alot.
Jerry
Get a Lee collet neck die and size your fired brass with that. BR prep brass like trimming to same length, inside outside deburr, remove flash from primer hole. Always use brass from the same lot. I am using Rem brass with great results.
Ensure that runout of ammo is as low as possible. Work up loads using MATCH primers (Fed 215M) and extruded powders. Mine just love Re25 and 162gr SST/AMax. I want to try Retumbo next. IMR7828 and H1000 proved too fast in my rifles.
I bet that with a little tuning as above, your rifle will shoot as good as you want the way it is. Just open up the foreend so that there is plenty of space around the barrel.
Foreend rigidity plays a very small role in LR accuracy because it doesn't touch the barrel (squeeze the barrel into the stock with your hand, it should not touch). Also, rest the rifle in the same place everytime and watch your shooting form. I like to rest the rifle just in front of the action. This is the most rigid spot on any stock and where I would be holding it anyways.
If the shooting is consistently first two touching and third flyer, your barrel is warping as it heats up. The bedding and freefloating will help alot.
Jerry
Well I went and shot on Friday. I set up in the bed of my truck with a target at about 250-300 yards. Rest was a backpack in front and t-shirt in the back. Federal 160 Partitions. I was shooting prone and had a problem with the gun jumping out of the rest during recoil. Each time I had to get back on the target and shift the gun around a bit which I am sure didnt help groups. Any suggestions? The shotwas across a pond and I have no rangefinder, however, I stepped it off and got 300 but that was a little high since I skirted the lake a little. Shot twice, then the cows got in the way. I walked out to the target and found two shots about a half inch apart.They were at the correct elevation but left about three inches. I dialed in about 1 moa to the right on my scope. I came back after an hour or so and shot three more times. These shots turned out directly above the first two about 3 inches. How could this be? I am very sure I changed the windage not the elevation. Also the elevation was not changed. Any ideas?
I am learning a lot though about shooting at distance (for me). Soon I hope to move the targets further and further out there. The second three shot group was about 1.2 moa at that range. That is about what the gun does at 100 yards. (A little worse) Tonight I decided to pull the action out of the stock. The gun got a good cleaning and I opened up the barrel channel a little and shaved off the hump in the front of the stock. Mainly I gained a lot of experience. I didnt quite float the barrel on the sides or front so that is going to take place tomorrow. One question, should I bed the action before continuing to float the barrel? I ultimately want a different stock but I am practicing bedding for a good stock. Those bansner stocks sound good at 210 dollars. I can paint it and install the recoil pad I am sure. Thanks for all the help, I am looking forward to seeing how it shoots after this work. Nathan
I am learning a lot though about shooting at distance (for me). Soon I hope to move the targets further and further out there. The second three shot group was about 1.2 moa at that range. That is about what the gun does at 100 yards. (A little worse) Tonight I decided to pull the action out of the stock. The gun got a good cleaning and I opened up the barrel channel a little and shaved off the hump in the front of the stock. Mainly I gained a lot of experience. I didnt quite float the barrel on the sides or front so that is going to take place tomorrow. One question, should I bed the action before continuing to float the barrel? I ultimately want a different stock but I am practicing bedding for a good stock. Those bansner stocks sound good at 210 dollars. I can paint it and install the recoil pad I am sure. Thanks for all the help, I am looking forward to seeing how it shoots after this work. Nathan
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
On the windage issue, what type of scope do you have? Sometimes the adjustments stick, time for a repair or new scope. I simply will not tolerate a scope with inconsistent adjustments. LR hunting depends on the performance of your scope.
Secondly, how was the wind? A light breeze will blow you that far. Use the pond as a big wind flag. Any ripples indicate a breeze and must be adjusted for.
Final thought would be to make or invest in a solid portable bench and proper rests. When testing, remove all possible variables. A wobbly rest and inconsistent shooting will simply drive you crazy and tell you nothing of your progress. There will be plenty of time to practise from field conditions AFTER the rifle and load are dialed in.
Still, you are getting very useable results. Just you will never know what to tune if you can't tell what caused the problems.
Most definitely bed that action. Remove the action screws, move the action in the stock. I bet you can move it around a bunch. A few thou is too much. Just imagine the stress and potential movement during recoil.
The action should be stress free in the stock once bedding has been completed. It will fall into the stock with a 'klunk' and not move in any direction. If fact, it should feel so solid that you can shoot without action screws. A glove fit is the goal. Also, ensure that the action does not move or bend when the action screws are tightened. A common problem.
Zero movement when the action screws are tightened and loosened. I bed under the first 1" of barrel. Some don't. With a light sporter barrel, both methods work just fine.
Free float the barrel after the bedding is done. I like at least 1/16" (very thick business card) around the barrel.
Now resight your rifle and rework up your loads (oops factory ammo). good chance the sweetspot will change but will now stay more consistent.
Proper rests, good form, calm conditions or wind flags/watch that pond, practise, practise, practise. Start thinking about reloading if you want the best out of any rifle (odds of factory shooting as well is not that great).
Sounds like you are well on your way...
Jerry
Secondly, how was the wind? A light breeze will blow you that far. Use the pond as a big wind flag. Any ripples indicate a breeze and must be adjusted for.
Final thought would be to make or invest in a solid portable bench and proper rests. When testing, remove all possible variables. A wobbly rest and inconsistent shooting will simply drive you crazy and tell you nothing of your progress. There will be plenty of time to practise from field conditions AFTER the rifle and load are dialed in.
Still, you are getting very useable results. Just you will never know what to tune if you can't tell what caused the problems.
Most definitely bed that action. Remove the action screws, move the action in the stock. I bet you can move it around a bunch. A few thou is too much. Just imagine the stress and potential movement during recoil.
The action should be stress free in the stock once bedding has been completed. It will fall into the stock with a 'klunk' and not move in any direction. If fact, it should feel so solid that you can shoot without action screws. A glove fit is the goal. Also, ensure that the action does not move or bend when the action screws are tightened. A common problem.
Zero movement when the action screws are tightened and loosened. I bed under the first 1" of barrel. Some don't. With a light sporter barrel, both methods work just fine.
Free float the barrel after the bedding is done. I like at least 1/16" (very thick business card) around the barrel.
Now resight your rifle and rework up your loads (oops factory ammo). good chance the sweetspot will change but will now stay more consistent.
Proper rests, good form, calm conditions or wind flags/watch that pond, practise, practise, practise. Start thinking about reloading if you want the best out of any rifle (odds of factory shooting as well is not that great).
Sounds like you are well on your way...
Jerry
Thanks a bunch. The scope is an older Leupold Vari-X II c. It is a fairly decent scope but it has friction adjustments. I would rather have the click ones but I am on a tight budget. I will have to do some further testing to make sure the scope is working properly, otherwise I can send it in to Leupold. Nathan
