Improved cartridges.

J E Custom

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I saw this Video and had to post it because of the amount of miss information in the video.

There are many reasons to improve a cartridge. The main disadvantage is that most of the time you will be required to reload.

The advantages are many, and worth the effort in many peoples mind. You can Improve a cartridge for many reason, An Increase or decrease the powder capacity, lengthening or shortening the case to better fit the action,
improve the efficiency of the powder consumption, (less powder to get the same pressures), Better case life because of less case stretching, Less bolt face thrust, Less case length growth requiring neck trimming and thinning, And so On.

The original reason to create an improved cartridge was to make better use of the existing powders of the day. This has been almost eliminated with the wide variety of available powders, but does not eliminate the reason for Improving a cartridge.

In the video He talks about the case stretch upon firing the improved cartridge. This does not happen If the improvement is done correctly (Like Ackley recommended with .004 thousandths case compression) If done correctly, case stretch is all but eliminated and If loaded correctly, trimming is almost non existent for the life of the case. also the advantage of a properly chambered improved cartridge is the fact that factory ammo can be fired in the improved chamber with exceptional accuracy. (Many times factory ammo will shoot better in an improved chamber that the factory chamber because it is held stationary during firing and has no head space
that would allow the cartridge to first move forward at the firing pin strike, and then being thrust back against the bolt face increasing the bolt thrust and case stretch.

Good information is great, bad information is harmful and can be dangerous. The information I have provided is not my opinion, It is known facts with proven results. If some don't agree that Is their choice, there is a lot of science and trial and error in Improving a cartridge and if the person improving a cartridge doesn't understand the cause and effects of making changes to a cartridge design, he should stick to the factory cartridges even if he reloads to avoid self inflicted problems.

Sorry about the rant most of the time I like his Videos, but he obviously doesn't understand the proper way to improved A cartridge and the benefits so I will leave it at that.


J E CUSTOM
 

J E Custom

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Just another perspective for those that don't agree that there are many advantages to Improving cartridge designs. Improvements are made for many reasons, beside velocity increases.

All of the "NEW" cartridges designs are nothing but Improved cartridges. For an example, the 6.5 Creedmoor. is something that a wildcatter would do to get certain benefits for use in a short action by increasing the body to increase the powder and shortening the case to seat bullets longer. Changes in freebore and lead angle were also changed, so it would fill a need.

The older cartridges all had shoulder angles of less than 25 o. 0' and some were even down to 8 o 30'. And as modern cartridges were designed, the benefits of the steeper shoulders had already been proven by Wildcatters and most newer cartridges use 20 to 30 degree shoulders. The newest have been designed with 30 to 40 degree shoulders that take advantage of the benefits they offer.

So for someone to say that Improved cartridges are worthless and cause problems is uninformed and just not true. As proven by the Newest cartridges. Just like long range hunting has improved
the sport, Wildcatters have improved the cartridges. Change is often very slow, but eventually the benefits prove themselves over time.

Just saying :)

J E CUSTOM
 

josip89

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In my eyes there is advantage but I am not willing to take a lot more step to have that advantage.
My opinion is that we should have better things from the factory.

Let say Norma is make 300 Norma Magnum few years ago and make it with 20 degree shoulder,why not 35 or even 40.
And there is a lot more example like this.
 

J E Custom

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In my eyes there is advantage but I am not willing to take a lot more step to have that advantage.
My opinion is that we should have better things from the factory.

Let say Norma is make 300 Norma Magnum few years ago and make it with 20 degree shoulder,why not 35 or even 40.
And there is a lot more example like this.
That's what many ammo Makers are doing by coming out with new cartridges with their name on them. It also stimulates sales. The newer cartridges aren't new, just improved. The bright side of this is the person that doesn't reload can take advantage of the improvements that wildcatters have been enjoying for many years.

There is nothing wrong with the old cartridges and many of them have a place of their own in the cartridge world, But if there is a gap in the selection, Many times it can be filled with an Improved cartridge of an Old world design with outstanding results.

J E CUSTOM
 

jpfrog

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That's what many ammo Makers are doing by coming out with new cartridges with their name on them. It also stimulates sales. The newer cartridges aren't new, just improved. The bright side of this is the person that doesn't reload can take advantage of the improvements that wildcatters have been enjoying for many years.

There is nothing wrong with the old cartridges and many of them have a place of their own in the cartridge world, But if there is a gap in the selection, Many times it can be filled with an Improved cartridge of an Old world design with outstanding results.

J E CUSTOM
this is why my last two builds have been a 280 Sherman and a 30-06 Ackley Improved. The Sherman has an extra forming step but is not difficult as I was already setup for reloading other cartridges, and man does it impress.

the 06AI simply requires loading factory ammo and pulling the trigger to get formed brass. Shoots great with standard 06 ammo, too!
 

josip89

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That is in my eyes big negative (fireforming and other step).

I want from factory all the goodies.

Let say You can just buy from lapua or norma already 3006AI.

And one more thing , in lot country You can not legaly own some wildcat.
 

del2les

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That is in my eyes big negative (fireforming and other step).

I want from factory all the goodies.

Let say You can just buy from lapua or norma already 3006AI.

And one more thing , in lot country You can not legaly own some wildcat.
Due to various production issues, setup costs, economy concerns (expected sales), variations in production chambers, etc, there are reasons we may never see some improved versions from the factories. A 40 degree shoulder is not the easiest to routinely produce on fast production machinery, but the 30 degree is easier and less costly. Ultimately, it comes down to economics to make a "new" (improved) cartridge viable to manufacture in large volumes.
 

HappyWarrior

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Very few have any real advantages. The P.O. Ackely book (by Zeglin) is required reading before getting into improved cartridges. One of the best, 280 AI, can be bought in factory rifles w/factory ammo.
 

J E Custom

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That is in my eyes big negative (fireforming and other step).

I want from factory all the goodies.

Let say You can just buy from lapua or norma already 3006AI.

And one more thing , in lot country You can not legaly own some wildcat.

It would be nice if all the manufactures made all of the popular Improved cartridges. But as stated, cost would probably kill many good cartridges. Also all Improved cartridges are Not the classic AI cartridges. There are many other things that can be improved in a cartridge. The number of changes are almost unlimited and very personal to a few shooters for specific reasons.

If it was not for the hot Rodder you would probably still be driving the family car with less than 50 horsepower instead of 400 + and gas mileage would still be in the neighborhood of 10 miles to the gallon. So in comparison, the wildcatter has been a great influence in the design of cartridges just like the hot rodder has to engines.

Factories do not even try to keep up with all of these want's and probably shouldn't for the sake of the masses. most only wan't to sale rifles and only want to make changes that separate them from the competition. Three or fore of the basic changes seem to be there limit and they pass on many other improvements that could further improve the performance.

With much though and planning, fire forming can be simple and trouble free and can sometimes be advantageous in the beginning for accuracy and case life. (Some wildcats limit case growth to less than factory growth upon first firing) and subsequent firings. Many times if done right, they will have better accuracy than the parent cartridge and chamber would.

It is also to bad that some countries don't allow wildcats, because there is no downside to better performance. It is just political and no real reason for these kind of rules. Sorry if you live in one of these countries with no possibility of innovation to look forward to. :(

Wildcatting and improving cartridge performance Is not for everyone. but it does benefit all.

Just My Opinion

J E CUSTOM
 

HappyWarrior

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Agree on benefits for knowledge gained. Almost all are duplicated in factory made stuff today. Rimmed being the big exception. 22K Hornet, 30-30 AI, 348 AI etc.
 
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