I would like to see Berger make ____
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midnightmalloy
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If this includes a 180-200gr 7mm hunting hybrid your my new best friend!
Id like to see Berger make a 175 gr .30 cal XLR varmint hunting bullet with a slightly opened meplat. Something like a .060 hp. And I would love to see their 175 gr .30 cal hunting bullet with a rebated boat tail like the miraculous bullets Richard Graves used to make.
Also a 300-325 gr .338 in their standard hunting configuration (with a rebated boat tail???)
Also a 300-325 gr .338 in their standard hunting configuration (with a rebated boat tail???)
Autorotate
Well-Known Member
A relatively economical (less than .80 cents per bullet) .375 caliber, 340-370 grain bullet that will stabilize in a 10 twist, and hold up to the test of 3200 fps MVs.
I think you'd have a lot of .375-338 Lapuas being built, and more 375 RUM, 378 Wby, and 375 Cheytac customers than you could make bullets for.
gun)
I think you'd have a lot of .375-338 Lapuas being built, and more 375 RUM, 378 Wby, and 375 Cheytac customers than you could make bullets for.
gun)
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
I am with cornstalker and winmag on this as well.
If would be a Berger customer for life if they developed such a thing.
AMAX's are great for their BC and expansion but they are too frail sometimes. The ACCUBONDS and INTERBONDS are awesome for the ability to expand and not come apart but the BC's leave alot to be desired.
We need an ACCUBOND or INTERBOND type of bullet with the BC's of the Bergers.
Berger needs to swallow some pride here and admit that there is a place for something other than explosive bullets. They have stood behind the explosive is better policy long enough. Sometimes its good and sometimes its bad. I am sure they will never adopt a project like this though as they have argued with Barnes to the point that (in their minds) they would look really stupid to alot of on lookers if they admited there was a place for solidly constructed bullets. Either way, unless it has 338, 300 grains attached to it, you wont find me or many other hunters using them. I know I would NOT think they were stupid. I would respect them more if they swallowed some pride and offered another product geared towards those that need or want them.
Some of the most accurate bullets I have fired were bonded with polymer tips. The accuracy should not be an issue with proper manufacturing.
Someone needs to offer a cross between the ACCUBOND and the VLD's/Hybrids. There is a HUGE market and place for these in this community. Who ever it is, they will increase sales substantially. For now, as far as hunting bullets are concerned, my money goes to Hornady, Nosler, Barnes and Sierra. In that order.
Magnumitis
Well-Known Member
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- Aug 14, 2010
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That would be nice.
Eric Stecker
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- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
First I want to apologize for taking so long to get involved with this discussion. SHOT Show activities take up a lot of my time. I also want to thank pyroducksx3 for starting this thread. We are always listening to what shooters want but this is the first time it was done in such a specific and direct way.
Now I will work to respond to all of the suggestions. If I miss one please refresh me as it was not intentional that I didn't include a response to everything.
Before I get into this I need to communicate an extremely important message. Everything I am about to share is IN DEVELOPMENT. This means that you should not call your local Berger reseller and ask them about these bullets. I get in trouble with our resellers because I often will talk about things on these forums first. They get phone calls but don't know anything about these items. This is not their fault since we never told them about something that they won't be able to put on their shelves. Please keep this in mind before you start looking for these bullets.
We are in the process of making our 338 cal 250 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical right now. A public testing for this bullet will be announced in a few weeks. It is important to relay that this is not a hunting bullet. I will address a hunting 338 cal later. I know which forum I am on and in which type of bullets you are interested but be patient and it will all be addressed.
Some of the bullets we will be introducing are not being discussed much because we are so early in the process of making them real. A 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting bullet is one such bullet.
I already addressed the 338 cal. Regarding the rest, it was our original plan for the next large diameter bullet to be a 50 cal. This would bookend our line and be the largest diameter bullet we will ever make. After we made the 50 cal we were going to start on other large diameter bullets. This plan has changed.
Due to significant feedback we've decided to make the 375 cal bullet next. This will be followed most likely by the 408 cal. Please keep in mind that introducing a whole new caliber takes a lot of time due to the significant amount of tooling involved. It won't be soon (and not likely this year) but the 375 cal and then 408 cal are the next new calibers to be made at Berger. We will likely add the others on this list eventually as well but let's get the other two out first before we even start to get excited about 8mm or 35 cal.
I'll be open about this bullet and admit that I did not know there was such a significant interest. This will be an easy one to add to the line but I have a question first before we get to work on it. We make a 7mm 140 gr VLD Hunting bullet now. Is this 140 gr bullet not good for the 7mm-08? Why is a 150 gr bullet more desirable? I'm not arguing any point but rather want to learn the difference between the two.
As much as I would love to test these bullets it is not likely that Berger will make anything using tracer or explosive materials. I like the idea but this is way outside of what we are good at.
We are working to introduce several ultra heavy hybrid hunting bullets for EOL. The first bullet will be a 270 cal 170 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting and then the 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting. It is likely that we will be making ultra heavy hybrid hunting bullets in all common hunting calibers but let us get the first 2 done and then we'll get to work on the others.
I get this request more than any other. The best I can do for you is to say that we will be conducting several of what we call "public testing" which is where we choose shooters to test a particular bullet before we launch them. Those who are selected get one box to test with and two more of their choice if they send in their results before the deadline.
We used to send out 3 thank you boxes but we recently increased the number of testers from 10 to 30 so we had to reduce the number of thank you boxes or the cost of the program would kill the program.
A lighter 338 cal is on our radar but it will be a while before we get there. Regarding bonded cores and plastic tips I do have some specifics I can share. I'll start with bonded cores. We did a lot of testing several years ago in an effort to make a bonded hunting bullet. At the time our goal was to make a bonded bullet that shot near 1/4 MOA in an equally capable rifle. We were not successful.
However, recently we've been given a number of reasons to consider making a bonded bullet again. It won't be soon but we are going to start developing a bonded core bullet. The accuracy goal will change to a target of 1/2 MOA but if we get consistently under 1 MOA we will test this bullet in the market. I'm not making any promises except to say that we are going to actively pursue a bonded core bullet again.
Regarding a plastic tip bullet, we spent even more time and effort trying to get a plastic tipped bullet to reach 1/4 MOA as we believe in the benefits of a plastic tipped bullet. At this time we have no plans to develop a plastic tipped bullet. Those who make them now do a great job and I'm not sure we will be able to add anything to this group. Unless we see a reason where a plastic tip is required for success with a given bullet we don't plan on making one.
I've got some info on the Hybrid Hunting bullets. We have tested the Hybrid design with our standard thickness jackets and the results were identical to the VLD Hunting bullets in terms of terminal performance. I am pleased to relay that in the next few months we will be launching Optimized Hybrid Hunting bullets in the same calibers in which we make Hybrid Target bullets now. These are the long nosed Hybrids so your barrel's twist rate and COAL length will need to be addressed.
I can understand the perception that this is true but I can assure you that I do not feel painted into a corner. If we can figure out how to make a bonded bullet shoot well we will make them available. We are working on this now.
I want to be clear that it is not a matter that we don't want to make these bullets but rather that we are known for making bullets that shoot as good or better than other options. We used 1/4 MOA as the standard at one point which we failed to meet. If we open up that standard to 1/2 or 3/4 MOA it is my understanding that this is better than most if not all bonded bullets. Is this correct? If it is we will work to get there.
See the above response about the ultra heavy EOL Hybrid Hunting bullets. The first one will be in 270 cal.
Which caliber? If you listed it I missed it.
I enjoyed meeting you at the SHOT Show. I hope your trip home was without incident. Your post is accurate on every point.
Frankly, it is this item that I am most excited about at this moment. This is the first I've said this publicly but this is the forum to do it on. Here it goes. We are reintroducing the Gen 1 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid bullet for our Hunting line. We will also be making a 250 gr Hybrid Hunting bullet using the same type of jacket as the original Gen 1 300 gr Hybrid bullet.
Even though the Gen 1 300 gr bullets had issues at high velocity/pressure, many shooters relayed that they had no problems with this bullet and that it is a fantastic hunting bullet. We had the idea that we would not need two 338 cal bullets but it is clear that we do. The 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical is made for accuracy not hunting. The "new" 338 cal 300 gr (and 250 gr) Hybrid Hunting bullets will be made specifically for hunters. We are working to have both bullets available in the next few months.
I already addressed the 375 caliber but wanted to address the "relatively economical" portion of this request. At Berger we will spare no expense to make the most consistent bullets we can make. We know this means that our bullets will be more expensive but at the same time we believe that there are shooters out there who want performance at this level. We operate with very low margins since we know we are the most expensive but our costs are higher than the other brands so our prices reflect a higher cost.
I am pretty sure that I have positioned how our bullets work as an alternative to how other bullets work rather than saying that they are specifically better. I've said many times that each hunter should decide which style they like best and use what they feel most comfortable with on their hunt. We don't make high weight retention/deep penetration bullets because we can't. I don't know how to do it. I think having options is a good thing.
I am proud of what we do at Berger but at the same time I am open to alternative options. I believe that saying we need to swallow our pride is inconsistent with how I personally and Berger as a company behaves in general. I've admitted to being wrong a number of times and have listened closely to shooters because as far as I am concerned shooters have the only opinions that matter.
I believe this addresses everything I found. If you have any other questions or comments keep them coming. If I see something I haven't addressed I'll post again. Thank you for your feedback.
Regards,
Eric
Now I will work to respond to all of the suggestions. If I miss one please refresh me as it was not intentional that I didn't include a response to everything.
Before I get into this I need to communicate an extremely important message. Everything I am about to share is IN DEVELOPMENT. This means that you should not call your local Berger reseller and ask them about these bullets. I get in trouble with our resellers because I often will talk about things on these forums first. They get phone calls but don't know anything about these items. This is not their fault since we never told them about something that they won't be able to put on their shelves. Please keep this in mind before you start looking for these bullets.
We are in the process of making our 338 cal 250 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical right now. A public testing for this bullet will be announced in a few weeks. It is important to relay that this is not a hunting bullet. I will address a hunting 338 cal later. I know which forum I am on and in which type of bullets you are interested but be patient and it will all be addressed.
Some of the bullets we will be introducing are not being discussed much because we are so early in the process of making them real. A 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting bullet is one such bullet.
I already addressed the 338 cal. Regarding the rest, it was our original plan for the next large diameter bullet to be a 50 cal. This would bookend our line and be the largest diameter bullet we will ever make. After we made the 50 cal we were going to start on other large diameter bullets. This plan has changed.
Due to significant feedback we've decided to make the 375 cal bullet next. This will be followed most likely by the 408 cal. Please keep in mind that introducing a whole new caliber takes a lot of time due to the significant amount of tooling involved. It won't be soon (and not likely this year) but the 375 cal and then 408 cal are the next new calibers to be made at Berger. We will likely add the others on this list eventually as well but let's get the other two out first before we even start to get excited about 8mm or 35 cal.
I'll be open about this bullet and admit that I did not know there was such a significant interest. This will be an easy one to add to the line but I have a question first before we get to work on it. We make a 7mm 140 gr VLD Hunting bullet now. Is this 140 gr bullet not good for the 7mm-08? Why is a 150 gr bullet more desirable? I'm not arguing any point but rather want to learn the difference between the two.
As much as I would love to test these bullets it is not likely that Berger will make anything using tracer or explosive materials. I like the idea but this is way outside of what we are good at.
We are working to introduce several ultra heavy hybrid hunting bullets for EOL. The first bullet will be a 270 cal 170 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting and then the 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid Hunting. It is likely that we will be making ultra heavy hybrid hunting bullets in all common hunting calibers but let us get the first 2 done and then we'll get to work on the others.
I get this request more than any other.
The best I can do for you is to say that we will be conducting several of what we call "public testing" which is where we choose shooters to test a particular bullet before we launch them. Those who are selected get one box to test with and two more of their choice if they send in their results before the deadline. We used to send out 3 thank you boxes but we recently increased the number of testers from 10 to 30 so we had to reduce the number of thank you boxes or the cost of the program would kill the program.
A lighter 338 cal is on our radar but it will be a while before we get there. Regarding bonded cores and plastic tips I do have some specifics I can share. I'll start with bonded cores. We did a lot of testing several years ago in an effort to make a bonded hunting bullet. At the time our goal was to make a bonded bullet that shot near 1/4 MOA in an equally capable rifle. We were not successful.
However, recently we've been given a number of reasons to consider making a bonded bullet again. It won't be soon but we are going to start developing a bonded core bullet. The accuracy goal will change to a target of 1/2 MOA but if we get consistently under 1 MOA we will test this bullet in the market. I'm not making any promises except to say that we are going to actively pursue a bonded core bullet again.
Regarding a plastic tip bullet, we spent even more time and effort trying to get a plastic tipped bullet to reach 1/4 MOA as we believe in the benefits of a plastic tipped bullet. At this time we have no plans to develop a plastic tipped bullet. Those who make them now do a great job and I'm not sure we will be able to add anything to this group. Unless we see a reason where a plastic tip is required for success with a given bullet we don't plan on making one.
I've got some info on the Hybrid Hunting bullets. We have tested the Hybrid design with our standard thickness jackets and the results were identical to the VLD Hunting bullets in terms of terminal performance. I am pleased to relay that in the next few months we will be launching Optimized Hybrid Hunting bullets in the same calibers in which we make Hybrid Target bullets now. These are the long nosed Hybrids so your barrel's twist rate and COAL length will need to be addressed.
I can understand the perception that this is true but I can assure you that I do not feel painted into a corner. If we can figure out how to make a bonded bullet shoot well we will make them available. We are working on this now.
I want to be clear that it is not a matter that we don't want to make these bullets but rather that we are known for making bullets that shoot as good or better than other options. We used 1/4 MOA as the standard at one point which we failed to meet. If we open up that standard to 1/2 or 3/4 MOA it is my understanding that this is better than most if not all bonded bullets. Is this correct? If it is we will work to get there.
See the above response about the ultra heavy EOL Hybrid Hunting bullets. The first one will be in 270 cal.
Which caliber? If you listed it I missed it.
I enjoyed meeting you at the SHOT Show. I hope your trip home was without incident. Your post is accurate on every point.
Frankly, it is this item that I am most excited about at this moment. This is the first I've said this publicly but this is the forum to do it on. Here it goes. We are reintroducing the Gen 1 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid bullet for our Hunting line. We will also be making a 250 gr Hybrid Hunting bullet using the same type of jacket as the original Gen 1 300 gr Hybrid bullet.
Even though the Gen 1 300 gr bullets had issues at high velocity/pressure, many shooters relayed that they had no problems with this bullet and that it is a fantastic hunting bullet. We had the idea that we would not need two 338 cal bullets but it is clear that we do. The 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical is made for accuracy not hunting. The "new" 338 cal 300 gr (and 250 gr) Hybrid Hunting bullets will be made specifically for hunters. We are working to have both bullets available in the next few months.
I already addressed the 375 caliber but wanted to address the "relatively economical" portion of this request. At Berger we will spare no expense to make the most consistent bullets we can make. We know this means that our bullets will be more expensive but at the same time we believe that there are shooters out there who want performance at this level. We operate with very low margins since we know we are the most expensive but our costs are higher than the other brands so our prices reflect a higher cost.
I am pretty sure that I have positioned how our bullets work as an alternative to how other bullets work rather than saying that they are specifically better. I've said many times that each hunter should decide which style they like best and use what they feel most comfortable with on their hunt. We don't make high weight retention/deep penetration bullets because we can't. I don't know how to do it. I think having options is a good thing.
I am proud of what we do at Berger but at the same time I am open to alternative options. I believe that saying we need to swallow our pride is inconsistent with how I personally and Berger as a company behaves in general. I've admitted to being wrong a number of times and have listened closely to shooters because as far as I am concerned shooters have the only opinions that matter.
I believe this addresses everything I found. If you have any other questions or comments keep them coming. If I see something I haven't addressed I'll post again. Thank you for your feedback.
Regards,
Eric
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Holy Cow, I think I hear angels singing!! I need to go buy lotto tickets or something
I thought for sure the 270 was going to stay the redheaded step child after the last time I emailed....midnightmalloy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2010
- Messages
- 842
eric,
will the new EOL 7mm 195gr hunting hybrid stabilize in a 1-9"? I am in the process of building a 7mmLRM and have a 1-9" twist blank sitting here and if it wont stabilize these new bullets then I will have another one made. I wouldnt want to not have the twist to shoot these bullets. when are you thinking these will be out? I got from your post that these will be the second bullets out in a few months.
will the new EOL 7mm 195gr hunting hybrid stabilize in a 1-9"? I am in the process of building a 7mmLRM and have a 1-9" twist blank sitting here and if it wont stabilize these new bullets then I will have another one made. I wouldnt want to not have the twist to shoot these bullets. when are you thinking these will be out? I got from your post that these will be the second bullets out in a few months.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Thanks Eric, A pleasure talking to you also and all the other friendly people at Berger. One of the things that makes your company so good is your customer relations and continuously striving to bring out top products for our industry. We all appreciate that very much.
One thing that is rarely mentioned and needs to be is that your company along with Best of the West TV show helped more than anything to break down many barriers concerning acceptance of long range hunting to the average hunter and we appreciate that also.
One thing that is rarely mentioned and needs to be is that your company along with Best of the West TV show helped more than anything to break down many barriers concerning acceptance of long range hunting to the average hunter and we appreciate that also.
padd54
Well-Known Member
Thanks Eric, what is the recommend twist raite for the .277 170gr EOL?
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
Regarding the twist rate needed for the ultra heavy EOL bullets, I will have to defer to Bryan. They are his designs so he will have to provide us with his suggestion.
Regarding availability, we are working to get the 270 cal bullet made by April. The 7mm will not likely be available until the end of the summer.
Please understand that we have a lot of road to travel between here and there. I can assure everyone that we are working on it now but we don't know what problems might come up when you start pushing the envelope. We may find out that something delays this for several months so please don't start ordering stuff until we know we can get these made.
Regards,
Eric
Regarding availability, we are working to get the 270 cal bullet made by April. The 7mm will not likely be available until the end of the summer.
Please understand that we have a lot of road to travel between here and there. I can assure everyone that we are working on it now but we don't know what problems might come up when you start pushing the envelope. We may find out that something delays this for several months so please don't start ordering stuff until we know we can get these made.
Regards,
Eric
1:8.5" or faster.
The 7mm 195 hasn't been designed yet so the twist requirement is not known for sure, but it will probably be around 1:8" to 1:8.5".
-Bryan
