I need some help from the reloading gurus.

[Louisiana Reloader]

Unfortunately I don't have a chrono yet. It's in my to buy list. I've put it off way too many years.

I would get a quality chrono as soon as you can and I think you will love it and appreciate all the data it will give you. My chrono has helped me solve a many of issues and questions I've had; plus (to me) there is no substitute for knowing exactly where your loads are at performance wise. I have an older model (about 10 years old) RCBS chrono that serves me just fine. When it finally wears out or starts giving me questionable data I will probably consider a Lab Radar or something of the like. There are many good chronographs out there and I'm sure there are many gents reading this that could provide some good insight on what to get depending on your needs. I would get a chronograph as soon as you can. Good luck and happy shooting.

 

[Louisiana Reloader]

I've got an -06 that likes Remington and Winchester brass, but has accuracy issues with Norma or Hornaday brass. I have an -03A3 that likes pretty much anything and works well with Lake City. You might try Starline brass for your .308, though. Since I shoot a number of 30-06's, 300 winmags and two 35 Whelens, I mostly full length size my casings, and then use a lee factory crimp to insure even neck pressure, though. I also shoot mostly sporter weight barrels, ranging from light sporter to heavy sporter depending on the caliber, so I have not been chasing accuracy beyond around a 1" group, edge to edge, with 5 shots. For a .308 bullet, that's a center to center of about 0.7", and that's good enough for me. I can get that with several types of brass, using Sierra, Speer and Hornady bullets ranging from 168gr up to 200 grains in my 30-06's and my 300winmags so that's good enough. I use the same load in Winchester, Remington, Federal and Lake City brass, and get the same result. I've had to tweak the Hornaday brass to match the velocities of the other brass, though.

Great insight on the brass. Like a gentleman said earlier, I've got one gun that doesn't care what you throw at it and I've got another one that is picky. My Rem 700 Sendero stainless 300RUM seems to like hot loads and everything I throw at it as long as case capacity is 95% or higher. My Browning X-Bolt 25-06 is a bit picky and doesn't like brass changes and definitely requires setting up specific loads again. Both rifles shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA and that is plenty good for what I use them for.

 

[greenejc]

LL! This is precisely what I was trying to get my point across in #36.

I don't weigh my cases either. Case weight between manufacturers can vary not just due to differences in thickness, but differences in the alloys they use. But volume varies only due to internal dimensions, which is why Feenix is right, and the best, most accurate way to measure case capacity is by using distilled water, which has a 1 to 1 ratio of volume to weight. Once one has the gram weight of the water in a casing, since one cubic centimeter of water is exactly 1 gram of weight, one can just convert it to grains and get the grain capacity for the casing. If you measure case capacity for 10 or so casings, you'll have an average capacity for that brand of brass. If two or three brands of brass have an average case capacity of within 0.5gr they 'should' shoot about the same, with about the same pressure curves. But mostly I don't worry that much about that. I get what I want in accuracy (inside 1 in. with 5 rounds at 100 yards) by just trimming, squaring the case mouth and annealing the necks, and separating the brass by manufacturer so that I'm not shooting mixed brass. My rifles are nearly all sporters and I don't expect them to shoot like a bench rest rifle. If my rifles get minute of deer out to 800 yards, I'm happy, with the exception of my Ruger No.1 in 25-06, which I try to get tight enough to be minute of prairie dog out to around 400 yards. I do expect more out of it and my Remington varmint weight .308. I try for 1/2" groups with them.

 

[greenejc]

Great insight on the brass. Like a gentleman said earlier, I've got one gun that doesn't care what you throw at it and I've got another one that is picky. My Rem 700 Sendero stainless 300RUM seems to like hot loads and everything I throw at it as long as case capacity is 95% or higher. My Browning X-Bolt 25-06 is a bit picky and doesn't like brass changes and definitely requires setting up specific loads again. Both rifles shoot 1/2 to 3/4 MOA and that is plenty good for what I use them for.

My Ruger in 25-06 and both my Whelens are not particularly sensitive to brass brands, either. I make a lot of my 25-06 from necked down and trimmed back 270 brass, and about half of the .35 brass is either necked up 30-06 commercial or military brass, trimmed and squared. With the Ruger No. 1 varmint, I can get around 0.6" with mixed brass, while the Whelens both get inside 1" with mixed brass using the Speer 250 grain bullet at about a grain under max and the Sierra 225 gets me closer to 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards even with mixed brass. I have to go with slightly lighter loads in the Whelens when using HXP brass, but I lose minimal velocity and still retain accuracy even in this brass. Because of barrel length differences, I get around 75 to 80 fps higher velocity from one than I do from the other, but both exceed 2730fps with the 225 grain Sierra. By the way, the 250 grain Speer exceeds 2650 fps from a 24" Remington CDL, and noticeably more from the Remington with the 26" ER Shaw 1 in 14" twist barrel. Both rifles kill on both ends, though.
Something else that might be mentioned here, since we're discussing accuracy loads and case capacity. I've noticed over the years that my best loads for accuracy have been between 90% and around 98% case capacity. If I use a load which would be 100% capacity, I seem to lose accuracy, and if I go to a compressed load of around 102%, I get accuracy back. Since I shoot some of my -06 loads in M1's, I tend to load no more than 95% capacity in them, and I use Shuster gas plugs in all of them, so I can adjust the op-rod velocity for the bullet weight and powder type. But these loads also shoot within 1" in both my bolt guns, and run good velocities in them, so I don't mind not getting the 'hottest' velocities out of them. Plus, I can get about 1 3/4" groups from the loads out all three of my full length/size Garands with open sights and 2" to 2 1/2" out of my Tanker length one at 100 yards. And that's about as tight as I can hold with iron sights anymore.

 

[greenejc]

In my current thoughts/opinion (liable to change in the future),

brass doesn't mean as much accuracy wise as most people think. Good brass means more from a longevity standpoint more than anything.

all you likely did was throw yourself out of a tune/node from the change in case capacity.

lets get to the real issue at hand:

for starters, i think your 0.163" group you posted is very unrealistic. if thats what your expectation is every time you shoot that gun you are going to be pretty **** disappointed alot.

1/4 moa consistently is top winning shooter ppc benchrest level, and even then……

i bet you if you shoot your "1/4 moa" federal load enough times it will probably shoot the same as your "crap 3/4" lapua load.

show me five 5 shot groups, or even five 3 shot groups of your federal load, and then we'll see where the issue truly lies.

i can't believe no one else here questioned this as well.

i am not trying to be rude, not even in the slightest, maybe your gun does shoot 1/4 moa consistently. i could be dead wrong.

i am just saying i think you may be setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations and driving yourself nuts over statistical variation.

You're dead right. If you check the 2022 10 shot bench rest records with both Heavy Bench and Light Bench rifles, they get around 0.15 inches at 100 yards, and around the same at 200 yards, and these are the best shooters and rifles in the world. A sporting rifle that will consistently shoot a 3 shot group inside 0.3" at 100 would be very unusual. I've shot groups that tight, but the same rifle reliably shoots about a 0.75" group, and groups in the 'ragged hole' category happen infrequently. But it isn't the tightest group I go for. It is the tightest consistent group I go for. I think its unrealistic to expect sub-1/2" groups from sporter barrels unless said rifle is a complete custom job with a guarantee of that kind of accuracy, and if it is a custom rifle, it will probably have only one or two specified loads that will shoot that well in it.

 

[Ray Gross]

That's weird. The second quote in Mikes post is not me.

 

[TeamCarnage]

It should appear obvious that if two cases are the same length and one case is heavier than another case, then there is more brass in the heavier case. The brass can only be in two places in the base or the case walls. Since the outside case dimensions must conform to the dimensions of the chamber then the only other variable that the extra brass can affect is the internal volume of the case. Less internal volume gives less room for powder burn to expand. the result is a difference in velocity between the two cases (if stuffed with the exact same load and components) and or an increase or decrease in pressure. I always weigh my cases and keep them sorted by weight. This also gives me an indicator to look for possible case head separation as over time and repeated stretching and FL sizing and trimming the brass just above the base will get thinner. Differences in the alloy makeup can also account for a weight difference, but that is so small that it is barely noticeable on a normal scale. Keeping accurate notes of what you are doing is also valuable. If you don't own a chrony, buddy up with someone at the range and use theirs. My ES and ED were always very small when I used same mfg same weight (or close) cases.

This is true as long as it is the same manufacturer, I assume that is a given in your post. Otherwise, the difference in brass thickness in places like the neck will cause a variation in neck tension and as a result pressure which will affect ES and SD. Thoughts?

 

[Stang66]

I didn't read through all 11 pages of help guesses and thoughts.
Did you ever measure and compare case neck wall thickness?

If not that may explain change & pressure signs.

Also you can fill with powder an old case and a new case to the top.
Then weigh the powder from each. If the Lapua has less powder then another reason for higher pressure with same load charge you use to use.

As many said if you change a component
Then you get to start again.
Even powder lot number change can make a difference.
Best of luck I understand your frustration.

 

[Mike Matteson]

This is true as long as it is the same manufacturer, I assume that is a given in your post. Otherwise, the difference in brass thickness in places like the neck will cause a variation in neck tension and as a result pressure which will affect ES and SD. Thoughts?

I'll go a long on that. Some say by using a mandrel to push the uneven thickness to the outside of the neck doesn't effect the chambering and firing the load and being aline in the chamber and bore. Saying that the bullet is released quicker than neck hitting the chamber wall, and I can see they are probable right, and for now I am going along with that.
Neck tension I think is a different story and hadn't given it though. I have seen in the pass necks being out 10th" or so.
I still do and will continue to cut all my necks to even thickness.

 

[Alibiiv]

I'll go a long on that. Some say by using a mandrel to push the uneven thickness to the outside of the neck doesn't effect the chambering and firing the load and being aline in the chamber and bore. Saying that the bullet is released quicker than neck hitting the chamber wall, and I can see they are probable right, and for now I am going along with that.
Neck tension I think is a different story and hadn't given it though. I have seen in the pass necks being out 10th" or so.
I still do and will continue to cut all my necks to even thickness.

I use a Foster Original trimmer with a neck turning attachment. The tool, once set up, does a fairly good job. My necks usually will clean up at around.013 thousands thick and within a half-thousandth. I mandrel neck size them before turning, there definitely is a bit more brass coming off the neck at the junction of the shoulder and the neck of the case. I don't really mess with neck tension and only use the recommended mandrel for the .308 diameter bullets. I go more for uniformity than anything else, and…to remove the donut. When I neck turn I remove the crank handle from the trimmer and use a DeWalt cordless drill.

 

[GUNNNN]

Here's what I've got. It's a Savage 308 win. I used Federal gold medal match for the barrel breakin and then worked up a load in the Federal brass that was shooting 1/4 moa with 168 grain Amax and 46 grains of Varget and a 210M primer. I only had about 40 pieces of Federal brass so after it was getting pretty shot out I grabbed a box of Lapua brass. I knew I'd have to tweak the load some but I expected just a small powder charge adjustment because I have done similar with other rifles In the past. Instead though this rifle just shoots like crap with the Lapua brass. 45.8 grains shoots the best at about 3/4". So you think the brass needs fire formed first to shoot well? I've always had good luck with Lapua right out of the box. What are some of your thoughts??

I have not changed anything g else in the load. I just took the 1/4 moa load and put it in the Lapua brass. Same primer. Same bullet. Same seating depth. And the same charge at first. Then I went up to 46.6 grains and 45.5 grains. 45.8 shot around 3/4 moa and below that opened up and above that opened up. It's got me a little puzzled.

Here's a pic of how it was shooting with the Federal brass. I know it says 45.8 grains but 46 (like I said above) proved to be the better load after more testing.

I'm not trying to be a smart@$$ but have you thought about just getting some more federal brass and see if it does as well as the first did I think that's a reasonable idea

 

[VinceMule]

I had rather eat a rat than use Federal brass in anything.

 

[Veteran]

No. I'll go weigh them now. From my experience Lapua is slightly thinner than federal and needs a little more powder to hit the same pressure. So I just went on past experience.

I havent compared Lapua and Hornady cases for .338 Lapua.
I found vast differences in the volumes of water or water weight each would hold.

Lapua held 114 grains h20 or so and Hornady only 107.

I say vast difference because
these volume differences are huge on velocity all other variables held constant.

For example my load on .338 LM using 96 gr N568 w 250 gr scenar is 2860 using Lapua brass w vol 114.9

Plug in Hornady at 107 in QL and you will see velocity is now 2979.

Thats 119 fps gain in velocity
just changing brass.

Check the water weights of the 2 brands of brass. I bet they are quiet different. Just a small diff in volume for the explosion, makes a lot more diff in pressure and muzzle velocity than you may appreciate.

And as we all know, bullet exit timing as regards harmonics has everything to do with group size and OCW. You need to redevelop your load using fire formed brass, different powder weight, and bullet seating.

Knowing the average water weight diff between these pieces of brass say on at least 5 to 10 pieces each will tell you a lot.

Chrono info on both will also tell you what velocity you need to try for on the new load.

Try again. Dont give up.

But your brass volumes are I bet very different.

I bet Hornady is smaller volume, higher pressure, higher velocity and you lost your node with much slower press and velocity w Lapua.

If so, you will need more powder w Lapua loads to get back to node.

 

[ShootnMathews]

I havent compared Lapua and Hornady cases for .338 Lapua.
I found vast differences in the volumes of water or water weight each would hold.

Lapua held 114 grains h20 or so and Hornady only 107.

I say vast difference because
these volume differences are huge on velocity all other variables held constant.

For example my load on .338 LM using 96 gr N568 w 250 gr scenar is 2860 using Lapua brass w vol 114.9

Plug in Hornady at 107 in QL and you will see velocity is now 2979.

Thats 119 fps gain in velocity
just changing brass.

Check the water weights of the 2 brands of brass. I bet they are quiet different. Just a small diff in volume for the explosion, makes a lot more diff in pressure and muzzle velocity than you may appreciate.

And as we all know, bullet exit timing as regards harmonics has everything to do with group size and OCW. You need to redevelop your load using fire formed brass, different powder weight, and bullet seating.

Knowing the average water weight diff between these pieces of brass say on at least 5 to 10 pieces each will tell you a lot.

Chrono info on both will also tell you what velocity you need to try for on the new load.

Try again. Dont give up.

But your brass volumes are I bet very different.

I bet Hornady is smaller volume, higher pressure, higher velocity and you lost your node with much slower press and velocity w Lapua.

If so, you will need more powder w Lapua loads to get back to node.

All excellent points. I haven't given up but I think I'm just going to shelve the more accurate idea for a while. I have tried and tried to get a really accurate load with this virgin Lapua brass and I can't break 1/2 moa consistently. So I think I'll just maybe use the best load I've found to finish out firing 50 rounds of the 100 new pieces and then I'll start back on a second loading. From a little testing the second loading on the Lapua shot much better. And I'll just save the other 50 new pieces for later. Reloading components are so scarce and pricey that I'm not happy about burning up cans of powder and boxes of primers Chasing a load. So for this hunting year 3/4 moa is just going to be good enough. I am cushions on the brass. Tonight I'm going to fully prep some of the Hornady and Lapua fired brass and weigh the water content.

I know I've got another firing in the Federal brass. I may just load a couple boxes of it for season and run it.