I Hate Hammer Bullets!

[RockyMtnMT]

There ya go, every other bullet is crappy. Nothing dropped dead before Hammer Bullets. It was expected that I'd shoot a buck and still be tracking it until Tuesday. Same ole song and dance. Read the OP's request. It gets SO annoying that every bullet/loading thread becomes a Hammer Bullet pep rally. Especially when satisfied customers were specifically asked not to comment.
You can throw darts at me on several other threads. Try the one on coyotes.

Maybe your post was a joke and I took wrong? Hmmm

 

[JMW67]

If Ford Fanatics always hopped on a thread about chevy or ram pickups and took it over and picked fights, I would grow to hate ford. Over enough time, any reasonable person would come to despise those people and the product motivating the behavior. Its annoying, nobody likes people like that.

It would be even worse if those same ford fanatics hopped on threads about ferrari's or lambo's and tried to push their product.
That is what you have going on at LRH. Same handful of guys. This isn't just one person and it doesn't happen every once in a while. It happens all of the time. They push and defend them on threads where it doesnt even make sense…people are just scratching their heads. Which is why you are starting to see people get sick of it. Even long time members here.

A few threads get posted about other mono bullet offerings and your boys are confused wondering what is going on like this is hammertime. And it bothers you so much that you have to start this thread.

Might as well change the name from Len's Long Range Hunting to Steve and Friends Hammer Bullets.

This non sense doesnt happen on 24hourcampfire, Rokslide, Snipershide or any other hunting or shooting forum. It is 100% unique to LRH.

Well I have to agree some threads do get hijacked and it does get annoying but I guess if we are to get rid of our right to freedom of expression {speech} whats that called oh yeah the 1st amendment may as well get rid of the second I just tend to ignore this stuff when it happens there is alot more important stuff in my life to fret over

 

[RockyMtnMT]

As a casual observer who has never shot them, this has essentially turned into the 6.5 Creedmore arguement. The more popular a product it becomes, the more some people will hate it. They don't have to have a reason and/or they may run with any unproven arguement that supports their point of view. On the other hand, just like some believe the 6.5C will kill elephants at 2.7 miles because of marketing and have essentially zero ballistic understanding, some will insist the hammer is the only bullet worth shooting despite probably a thousand other bullets being successful. It's that blind/ignorant/overly passionate loyalty that drives many people crazy.

I'm sure there are some legitimate gripes with Hammer bullets because nothing is perfect, but you're chasing your tail looking for an answer. Stick to your secret sauce that sells and forget the naysayers because you'll never please everyone. Stay out of the arguments and dont fan the flames that keep the arguments going. Once people loose the emotional reaction to your product, they'll quit posting negative things because they won't care. You're better off spending your time researching, improving, partnering, or selling. You've outgrown the phase of your business where you have to gain new customers one at a time by personal interactions on a forum. Accept the idea that people are going to post negative opinions about your product and you don't have to address each and everyone of them. Just like people hating on the 6.5C, most actually hate the overly passionate following. Trying to change their mind by discussing the attributes of the round only makes their disdain worse and it's not even addressing the root problem. You've got bigger, more productive fish to fry.

This is very good advice. I try to stay out but it is not really my nature to just lie down.

Thanks for your wisdom.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Is that what litz said or was it an excuse to explain away the difference? Literally every other bullet(thousands of bullets) in applied ballistics from dozens of mfgs are accurate- why would these be any different?

That is what applied ballistics told me. No excuse you can ask them your self.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I know I'm going against the op's wishes but for me, there's so many people here that promote, make so many threads talking about hammer bullets, I'm just worn out about how hammers get praised on every bullet thread. From a possible buyer of your products, I believe that with this much praise and not much legitimate negatives to a product, that product is too good to be true and I just get turned off…..I would love to try them but I can't afford them and to be honest, the way I hunt and shoot I have no real reason to use monos even though I've tried a couple brands.

Steve, there's no hate here from me for you, your company or bullet……just tired of the p!ss!ng matches when ppl are trying to get honest answers to the bullets they have narrowed down and your hammers get brought up or promoted like some here get commission for promoting/selling the hammer bullet. It's like some have to praise them so much for them to justify them in their mind or something, idk.

H3ll, I read a thread the other day that someone was wanting to shoot coyotes and the bullets didn't have to be fur friendly, guess what got brought up……use a hammer, their fur friendly, when the op specifically said that the furs aren't worth anything. Sorry, but there's NO way I'd use a bullet over $.60 just to blow a hole on a yote.
Lol, I mean the way they get talked up here it seems that if an animal even looks at your bullet that they fall over dead with a caliber or quarter size entrance and a golf ball sized exit with other smaller holes around the main hole, seriously. It's not your fault but darn it, it gets old.

They are heat seeking you know!

 

[skipglo]

Thank you!

 

[skipglo]

If Ford Fanatics always hopped on a thread about chevy or ram pickups and took it over and picked fights, I would grow to hate ford. Over enough time, any reasonable person would come to despise those people and the product motivating the behavior. Its annoying, nobody likes people like that.

It would be even worse if those same ford fanatics hopped on threads about ferrari's or lambo's and tried to push their product.
That is what you have going on at LRH. Same handful of guys. This isn't just one person and it doesn't happen every once in a while. It happens all of the time. They push and defend them on threads where it doesnt even make sense…people are just scratching their heads. Which is why you are starting to see people get sick of it. Even long time members here.

A few threads get posted about other mono bullet offerings and your boys are confused wondering what is going on like this is hammertime. And it bothers you so much that you have to start this thread.

Might as well change the name from Len's Long Range Hunting to Steve and Friends Hammer Bullets.

This non sense doesnt happen on 24hourcampfire, Rokslide, Snipershide or any other hunting or shooting forum. It is 100% unique to LRH.

Thank you!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I will throw out some small complaints I ran into. When I got my first box of Hammers I went through and weighed all 50 bullets. They were the 7 mm 143 gr. I was surprised to see up to a 2 grain difference in many of the bullets, and one that was actually a 131 gr! That is over a 10 grain difference, glad I had weighed them all. That was kind of disappointing for a bullet that cost over twice the amount of the bullets I had been loading, the Eldx 162. When I weighed each Eldx, they were mostly all 162.0 and didn't vary more than 0.5 grains. When I did load development with the hammers they shot about the same as the Eldx so I didn't use the hammers again for awhile. This year I decided to give them a shot again, but I didn't have enough of the Hammers from the original box of 143 gr, so I ordered a new box of 143 gr. Of course I measured and weighed them and they were significantly different weight and BTO than the first box. So load development again. I thought with the CNC machining they would be more consistent. Anyway I found a good load with the new hammer 143 and shot a bull elk at 360 yards. It performed perfectly and rolled him downhill. So overall I am happy with the performance, but wish they were more consistent.

Well it looks like a 131g Hammer Hunter some how snuck into that box of 143's. We work carefully to keep this from happening. Obviously something went wrong in this instance.

Not sure the time frame of the two diff boxes but when we changed from the little 2 axis lathe that we started with in my garage to the swiss screw machines that we currently use, we were not able to exactly duplicate what the first lathe made. We had to bite the bullet, pun intended, and just make the switch. We should only see about .2g variance from bullet to bullet. We did have a bearing wear out on us that caused some issues about a year ago. We caught most of those but certainly possible that some got through before we figured out the problem.

Glad to hear they worked well for you. Sorry to hear there was issues. I can never say never but I think we have these things ironed out now.

 

[skipglo]

So in your humble opinion discussion of Hammer Bullets should be banned from this forum? Interesting. Any other products? I've seen Sherman products mentioned?

I certainly didn't say BANNED! Feel free to quote that part Steve. You asked...we reply.
....kinda like the THE HEAT IN THE KITCHEN BRO....Nice thing about Sherman...like you..awesome product...left to choice...not inundated! Like Ford....remember?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I do not want to ruffle any anti fan boy feathers so criticism only here.

My observations of digging bullets from sand backstop (100yrds through cardboard target 1st) is that hammers at or near minimum twist do not always shed petals and penetrate perfectly as over twiste

d hammers do. It seems as if one petal opens a bit and pulls or bends bullet changing the direction of penetration. I have not seen this at all with hammers 1" over minimum twist.

So my question to Steve would be, is this a real issue or is a sand backstop test completely irrelevant?
View attachment 330990

Getting them to work without fluid won't work. So yes irrelevant.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Me personally I'd say sand backstop is irrelevant. I've dug my far share of bullets from a sand back stop though and usually at least with cup and core they seem to expand ok. Been years since I've done that though

Yes lead is pretty much a fluid. The old exposed lead tip bullets are the easiest bullets to get to expand since the nose of the bullets are filled with fluid.

 

[cornshank]

Oops touched the post button.

You are no different than most shooters. Most are reluctant to try something new when they have success with a product they are currently using. Plus the work that was likely done to get success with the product currently used. A legitimate reason not to use Hammers for sure. A reason to not like them, not do sure about that. Maybe one day we will have you as a customer, hopefully.

You never know ,thanks for the reply

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I'd like a tipped Hammer bullet, no matter your previous explained experiences of poor expansion at lower velocity. Tipped bullets can provide reliable expansion. Perhaps the tipped versions you've experimented with didn't have the Midas touch. A larger tip diameter at the base of the tip will help, by creating greater force against the leading edge of the copper bullet. A deeper or larger diameter hole in the copper bullet, which accepts the tip, will also help initiate copper bullet expansion by reducing the force required to initiate copper nose flare out / expansion.

I've been shooting tipped copper monolithic bullets for at least 4 seasons now. Proving deadly on game, with very minimal meat destruction. No failures to expand so far... But I must add, I've not yet shot an animal past 625yds thus far.

Tipped bullets have been in use forever in lead jacketed bullets. An optimized combo of tip design will overcome your experiences of expansion failures at lower velocities, in my opinion. There's nothing that hydraulic fluid acting on the hollowed tips of your bullet is accomplishing, that a solid tip inserted into a hollow cavity, can't also accomplish.

As you know, my opinion can be lacking humility.

At higher velocities we have no trouble getting consistent expansion. Getting below 2000 fps is where issues show up.

Kind of like when we first made bullets and assumed that the nice pure copper that we got would work perfectly because it was so pure. We shot a ton of animals that year with perfect performance. Shot a cow elk at roughly 650y too. Had sent some bullets to a guy to test and found out they didn't work for him. Come to find out none of the animals that we had shot were impacted below 2500 fps. We duplicated his test at 2500 fps and he was correct. They didn't work. So fortunate we didn't launch the website then. Had it loaded ready to go and had to start over with new copper and new design. Bc was great on those first ones though.

You could be correct on hole size to tip size ratio and we just have not found the sweat spot. I don't know though. I am skeptical and unwilling to market a bullet that is less effective to gain a few inches of wind drift. We are not done trying. I want it to work too. The last tip testing session of several diff configurations was disappointing to say the least.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

My perception of Hammers is that you need to be ready to push the envelope on velocity and pressure and very adept at reading pressure signs to do so.

Since I started reloading a couple of years ago and I tread very carefully, I struggle to justify the cost of the bullets knowing that the ROI is not something that I can achieve until I'm prepared to push the velocity envelope.

For me, it is not really that different than buying the best brass that money can buy - after 3x use, they go to a bin reserved for days down the road when I have a better understanding how to judge their remaining mileage or up for sale to fund the purchase of new brass.

But from a marketing perspective, the perception that a good level of expertise is needed to justify the cost of Hammer bullets is likely limiting your "total available market penetration". That is unfortunate for me as a bullet that will work perfectly from 0-500 yards is very much ideal for me.

I would say the Absolute Hammers fall into your description. The Hammer Hunters and the Shock Hammers line up quite well with conventional lead core bullet data of similar weight. These Hammers will show a bit less pressure so the start loads will be mild to work up from. Staying within the max listed loads don't hurt. Nosler data is generally what I call hot data and lines up pretty nicely. Hodgdon data is pretty conservative and will be pretty mild.

Our own data is in the works. It is definitely time.