I feel compelled to comment on the Remington Arms legal action

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Shawn Carlock, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. Shawn Carlock

    Shawn Carlock Sponsor

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    It seems that the focus has been on the safety of the firearm itself. I have had to "repair" many of these for the firing when the safety is disengaged issue. Of all I have seen like this the cause was one of a couple of issues.
    1. The trigger was improperly adjsuted (most common)
    2. Trigger assy was full of gummy residue from cleaning without a bore guide causing some parts to stick.

    The core problem as I see it is this ( I pity the families that have lost one to these accidents there is nothing worse ), if the rifle was pointed in a safe direction not one single life would have been lost. There is no way around that, period. Mechanical failures can happen for a number of reasons, poor gun handling can fall on only one persons shoulders, the shooter.

    Please take some thought on this. I am very strict about muzzle control with my kids and myself. If I hold up my end of the stick I won't have to blame someone else.
     
  2. kiwi3006

    kiwi3006 Well-Known Member

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    Well said Shawn, I agree whole heartedly.
    I own a Rem 700 and I have adjusted the trigger myself. I tested the trigger after to make sure it was safe (slam the bolt closed, cock and release safety etc).

    Down here in NZ to own a firearm you have to be licensed. To get the license you have to pass a test. There are 40 odd questions, 7 of them you must get right. Two of the questions are on 1, treat every firearm as loaded, 2, always point the rifle in a safe direction.

    Seems to me some people don't always follow these rules.

    Stu.
     
  3. eddybo

    eddybo Well-Known Member

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    well stated.
     
  4. Michael Eichele

    Michael Eichele Well-Known Member

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    Well said Shawn.

    Rule #1: Muzzle control

    Rule #2: Trigger control

    Rule #3: Empty breech

    Rule #4: If you dont like the trigger that came with the rifle, buy an aftermarket trigger.

    I have seen a couple factory triggers drop when the bolt closed ONLY after they were adjusted. After owning several 700's and being around countless 700's, I have never seen a factory trigger fail except for the ones that were adjusted outside the factory.
     
  5. rifleman0714

    rifleman0714 Member

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    Agreed, my brother had his 700 fire , it removed a rather large chunk of meat from his right thumb,( the safety removed it when it went off). The trigger was messed with by a self proclaimed "gunsmith". Its a machine, and like any machine if its improperly adjusted, its gonna malfunction. He still has the 700, its a 340 weatherby now and he would sell his wife before the rifle. my respects go out to the families that lost someone due to a malfunction.
     
  6. happylilcuss

    happylilcuss Well-Known Member

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    100% agree. I know its the worst thing in the world to lose someone and I am not callused to those losses. However to blame an inert object on human failure is not healthy. If the rules and common sense would be or were followed none of these issues would have been a major problem. I have seen one failure in 100's and it too was on an impropperly adjusted trigger.

    Just because you can work on something doesnt mean your qualified or that you SHOULD work on it. I also dont really disagree that the license idea is a bad one. I mean you have to have a license to drive but not to own a deadly weapon or make a baby.. Whats wrong with that???
     
  7. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    Aftermarket triggers are not always a cure all, sort of.

    Prime example:

    While hunting muleys in Colorado a few years ago, my brother's 270 fired the moment he released the safety on his custom 700 rifle. He was angled right in front of me and I could see that he clearly did not have a finger near the trigger. We both took a moment in confusion and I asked him if his rifle just did what I thought it did. He confirmed. Fortunately, he is not a dumbass like the individuals in question with the 700 rifles. He had his pointing at the ground and had just chambered a round a minute or so prior to this, as we were approaching a bedded buck. The rifle was built by a reputable and experienced gunsmith. My brother wanted to save some money by having a Shilen trigger installed instead of the Jewel that I recommended.

    After the incident he sent the rifle back to the smith and got a Jewel installed. The Shilen trigger was sent back to Shilen and I honestly do not remember what ever came of it.

    I know I seem harsh with my language above but that's the way I roll when it comes to firearms and safety, and I make no apologies for it. If your rifle discharges unintentionally and you kill someone, especially in a house, then you flat out were "aiming" it at them. That means you don't have the smarts to be handling that firearm to begin with.
     
  8. Michael Eichele

    Michael Eichele Well-Known Member

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    Youre right. Theyre not always a cure all. I have had my jewell triggers drop on the bolt close as well. However, they were not set up and adjusted properly. Aftermarket triggers need to be set properly or they will fail too. However, aftermaket triggers are meant to be adjusted and if done right can be very safe and I dont believe 700 triggers are meant to be adjusted or safe when adjusted.
     
  9. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    Remington will adjust their own triggers down to 3.5 # if you request it.
     
  10. 25 Otter

    25 Otter Well-Known Member

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    As a handgun instructor,rifle enthusiast,hunter and 35 year vetern of various shooting sports,I must agree. If you ever have an accidental / negligent discharge,and someone is injured or killed, YOU are to blame. Your muzzle was pointing where it shouldn't have been. I've shot BR with 2 oz. triggers and no safety. Trap with shotguns with no safety. If there were any AD / ND problems,they were in a safe direction. AS THEY SHOULD BE. There are certain inflexible rules of safe gun handling. Break them and there could be tradgic results. To blame the weapon is absurd. The safety of the firing line in my classes is strictly enforce. Anyone that is disruptive or unsafe is removed from the class. We cover range rules and safety in depth in the class room,and there is a zero tollerance for unsafe weapon handling. I can't imagine loosing one of my children to a shooting accident. The grief would be unbearable. WE MUST be concious of that muzzle. No excuses.
     
  11. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    BINGO. That concept cannot be overstated enough.
     
  12. Buano

    Buano Well-Known Member

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    I had a gun that was unsafe once the bolt was closed. It was not a Remington, but a Stevens .22 that I worked the trigger as a kid to make it a true hair trigger. The bolt could not safely be closed until the shooter was ready to shoot. Since I knew the issue (and intentionally created it myself) it was safe for me since I would always handle it knowing how dangerous it was WHEN the bolt was closed. I killed a lot of small game with that rifle, and won a few bets along the way.

    I am a firm believer in Rule 1 of gun handling — always point a gun in a safe direction. I'm also a believer in Rule 2 — treat every gun as if it were loaded.

    That said, there is statistical evidence the Remington trigger/safety system is not as safe as other trigger/safety systems. The evidence is the long history of a low percentage of Remington 700 rifles discharging when they were not supposed to while no other major make of rifle has that history. May some of this be due to the huge numbers of Model 700 rifles out there? Of course that would make any low percentage issue seem bigger. Then again, there have been a lot of Model 70 Winchesters sold and Mark 5s sold, Sakos sold, and Mausers sold, all without this track record. Sadly, our laws have allowed Remington to pay off victims in exchange for non-disclosure agreements so we will likely never know the number or severity of injuries.

    Previous posts have repeated what Remington has always implied the issue was, while the evidence says otherwise. This is now glaringly clear since SWAT teams and military units have documented the same safety issues related to the trigger & safety system. The history shows most Rem Model 700 rifles will never experience this problem, but those that do are extremely dangerous. For now the only safe ways I know to have a Rem 700 rifle are: mounted on the wall where it will never be loaded, or with an aftermarket trigger. I say this not as someone who dislikes Remington products — there are two in the safe & one I sold was the second most accurate rifle I've ever owned (a BDL Varmint whose worst factory ammunition groups were right at .5" & best factory ammunition groups were consistently under .2").

    For me this issue is not a knee-jerk reaction as to whether I like Remingtons. It's about finally knowing one Model Remington rifle has had (a very low percentage of) their rifles fire unexpectedly since the model was introduced while other makes & models have not had that problem. It's about Remington paying for nondisclosure agreements so we can't see what happened in these cases. It's about Remington doing its' best to bury this issue instead of redesigning their trigger/safety system. And (sadly) it's about Remington not disclosing the vast numbers of claims they have had on this issue to their dealers & customers.

    If this trigger cannot safely be adjusted, Remington can make it non-adjustable. If dirt is the issue, Remington could seal it or make it easier to clean. If it is an issue of a random stack-up of manufacturing tolerances that makes occasional triggers unsafe they need to improve quality control or design around the issue. This is an issue for Remington to fix, and if they choose not to, they deserve a jury award, or multiple awards, that will bankrupt them. Hopefully, Remington's management will decide to do the right thing for the long-range health of the company, and for the safety of their customers, and replace this trigger system with a better one.
     
  13. Scot E

    Scot E Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Shooting is a big responsibility, one that can easily be forgotten if we aren't all careful.

    All of my kids have commented on how different I acted when I was teaching them gun safety training and how I am never as serious and demanding the rest of the time. I think the word mean even came up a couple times. :)

    I remind them that a fatal accident with a firearm and a family member would be a life long tragedy and would likely be something they would never get over.

    Let's all use this time to make sure we, and our family and friends, all brush up on our safety skills and make sure nothing like this happens with this LRH brotherhood.

    Maybe the best thing we can do is to be the one that has the "talk" with our hunting partners before we hit the field. It is never an easy conversation to have but a necessary one. I see some horrible safety skills in the field, especially with upland and waterfowl hunting. Kids are so much more involved in this kind of shooting. Makes me very nervous.
     
  14. royinidaho

    royinidaho Well-Known Member

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    Agreement here on all that was stated above.

    I personally know of only two rifles that have discharge due to idiot pilots.

    The first was my brother and his Rem 700 '06. I told him his trigger sucked and to let me adjust it. I adjusted it. He shot it all of PA's chuck season and for a couple of deer seasons. One buck season it got extremely cold. BOOM!!! he blew out the pillar between the dorrs on his K-car and busted all the windows.

    The other idiot was myself with my Mauser 98 and self adjusted Timney trigger. There has never been a problem with the firing pin dropping as the bolt is closed, but!

    One afternoon after a yote hunt out back it was just "too" cold to not to come immediately in side to unload.:rolleyes: Even after coming in to the basement, I was stupid enough to not take off the heavy gloves I was waring. I must have touched the trigger a bit and blew out the basement window. At least the muzzle was pointed in the 'most' safe direction.:rolleyes:

    All of us have done stupid things from time to time and 'must' accept responsibility for own actions!