I bet I'm not the only one using powder they've never used before

[Seabeeken]

This is my data spreadsheet for those 284 loads using 4166
columns L-R
powder/charge, load number, case fill%, efficiently %, % burned, Barrel time, Primer, OAL, measured Velocity, group, ES, SD

The OBT load quickload calculated was the middle load of 50.7 gr

 

[Seabeeken]

For all of you testing new powders, did you actually buy enough to make it worth the while if it works?

Logic here says stay the coarse. 1 or 2 lbs of a powder does me no good if I cannot secure more.

I didn't wait till it was unavailable. I have plenty and have for years. Of course I'm not using 60+ grains per case either.
At the moment, bullets are more of a problem than powder or primer

 

[Husky user]

I was lucky my elk hunting buddy gave me two lbs of 7828 which has the same burn rate as RL 25 ,also gave me 400 215's
RL 25 on Gun Broker about $100 for one lb.

 

[sfdoc2000]

Nice work Seabeeken, especially for a navy guy (TIC). I think we are on the same page and you nicely explained a bit more detail than I did. One suggestion is to also watch neck tensions because that can make SD's go crazy if the necks are not uniform. Agree that best load is not always the same as that calculated but Quickloads can get you into range. Also I use a .2 grain step on my .223 "limited ladder" testing since the loads are much smaller in the 25 grain range and .3 grains makes a big jump in velocity.
Truthfully, though, the SEALS I worked with on deployment in Afghanistan were some of the finest guys I knew.

 

[Seabeeken]

Nice work Seabeeken, especially for a navy guy (TIC). I think we are on the same page and you nicely explained a bit more detail than I did. One suggestion is to also watch neck tensions because that can make SD's go crazy if the necks are not uniform. Agree that best load is not always the same as that calculated but Quickloads can get you into range. Also I use a .2 grain step on my .223 "limited ladder" testing since the loads are much smaller in the 25 grain range and .3 grains makes a big jump in velocity.
Truthfully, though, the SEALS I worked with on deployment in Afghanistan were some of the finest guys I knew.

I agree. Thanks. Neck tension was a place where I had huge success getting better numbers. First, I stopped neck turning mainly because I found that buying quality brass to start with it just wasn't necessary. Second, I shoulder bump .001-.0015 and use a bushing for minimal working of the neck. Last, I use a Q tip and a small amount of Lee case lube to lube the inside of the case necks and let dry. This brought ES numbers from 2 digits to single digits in MOST cases. It also stops bullet weld in ammo that could be sitting for an extended period. The whole key to the numbers is CONSISTENT BULLET RELEASE. Annealing, lubing, etc all helps. Being a navy guy it only took me 47 years to figure it out. LOL

 

[Mike Matteson]

For all of you testing new powders, did you actually buy enough to make it worth the while if it works?

Logic here says stay the coarse. 1 or 2 lbs of a powder does me no good if I cannot secure more.

I would say that the 1 or 2 # would give you an ideal as to what it will do for you. Getting 8lbs or more could be a waste of money if the powder doesn't do anything for you. A great many years ago I used IMR powder in 4350 & 4831. Found the extreme temperature with those powders. Gave away about 16 lbs of it. So if you like to buy 8lbs + and fine out it doesn't work you, then what. You are sitting on it trying to sell it open containers, and for how much? It will expand your horizons. I don't know how much pressure I develop when I blew a primer out of my case 20 years back, but I never done that again. If there isn't a chart on certain powder showing how it does with temperature changes, you will have to figure it out on your own. Hodgdon does put out a chart, but doesn't have all the powders. (thankful for that) hunt in weather that can varies from 110+ to -20 below. So a powder that fine @ 70dr, and can take your rifle apart @ 110dr.
Right now it's very hard to get any mount of powder. If you try it and it works, just have to wait until more comes out, but at least you have a better ideal of how that powder works. 1 or 2 lbs will give you 70 to 140 load using 100gr per case. That should be more than enough to figure it out.
I know when I get back to Montana I will check out some powders with temperatures variance I use that are not charted. I want thank the other person for taking the time to write up what he has found.

 

[sfdoc2000]

Actually, Quickloads lets the user set the ambient temperature at which the load is going to be used, so that can help the loader determine if he is going into an overpressure situation with increasing temperatures. certainly the newer extreme powders have better temperature stability but older powders may not. I had a load for RL17 in my 6.5 Creed that I set for 40 degrees but ended up more than 50 fps at 75 degrees and flattened primers before I learned how to use Quickloads.

 

[Seabeeken]

Mike, I talked to Don at accurate powders some months ago about temperature sensitivity and he told me that it is a relative thing. One maker's definition is different from another. I also asked about the Ramshot line sensitivity and I was amazed at how little temp affected it since it is a ball powder. Any time we push loads to the upper limits we run the risk of overpressure in hot temps so its best to develop these loads in the hottest temps we are likely to shoot in. A few years ago while working up a load in my 243ai, I tried some H-414 and got some crazy results. One load would show a normal load and then the next would show high pressure and the next low again. Its a great powder in some cartridges but in that case it was way too unpredictable and I haven't messed with it since.

 

[Seabeeken]

Actually, Quickloads lets the user set the ambient temperature at which the load is going to be used, so that can help the loader determine if he is going into an overpressure situation with increasing temperatures. certainly the newer extreme powders have better temperature stability but older powders may not. I had a load for RL17 in my 6.5 Creed that I set for 40 degrees but ended up more than 50 fps at 75 degrees and flattened primers before I learned how to use Quickloads.

Ive used it a good bit but the temp feature is only reasonably accurate after the other factors have been fine tuned. QL is just a prediction and I've seen it off by as much as 200 fps. Most of the time I can get it tuned to within 20-25 fps. My 5R rifled barrels are never near quickload predictions. Of course I haven't adjusted drag factors for those barrels either. It is fun to play with that temp feature and see just how much temp affects the loads, often surprising.

 

[sfdoc2000]

Ive used it a good bit but the temp feature is only reasonably accurate after the other factors have been fine tuned. QL is just a prediction and I've seen it off by as much as 200 fps. Most of the time I can get it tuned to within 20-25 fps. My 5R rifled barrels are never near quickload predictions. Of course I haven't adjusted drag factors for those barrels either. It is fun to play with that temp feature and see just how much temp affects the loads, often surprising.

Agree that the temp setting is only reasonably accurate but can give a range of prediction. Better than guessing.
Also agree that some things Quickloads cannot put into simulation. 5R barrels are one thing and also friction reduced bullets and additional things like moly or Hexagonal boron can significantly change muzzle velocities.

 

[milo-2]

I would say that the 1 or 2 # would give you an ideal as to what it will do for you. Getting 8lbs or more could be a waste of money if the powder doesn't do anything for you. A great many years ago I used IMR powder in 4350 & 4831. Found the extreme temperature with those powders. Gave away about 16 lbs of it. So if you like to buy 8lbs + and fine out it doesn't work you, then what. You are sitting on it trying to sell it open containers, and for how much? It will expand your horizons. I don't know how much pressure I develop when I blew a primer out of my case 20 years back, but I never done that again. If there isn't a chart on certain powder showing how it does with temperature changes, you will have to figure it out on your own. Hodgdon does put out a chart, but doesn't have all the powders. (thankful for that) hunt in weather that can varies from 110+ to -20 below. So a powder that fine @ 70dr, and can take your rifle apart @ 110dr.
Right now it's very hard to get any mount of powder. If you try it and it works, just have to wait until more comes out, but at least you have a better ideal of how that powder works. 1 or 2 lbs will give you 70 to 140 load using 100gr per case. That should be more than enough to figure it out.
I know when I get back to Montana I will check out some powders with temperatures variance I use that are not charted. I want thank the other person for taking the time to write up what he has found.

My point was, why buy and test powders if chances are slim you will find the supply needed. The chances of your favorite powder coming back in stock will probably be the same as some obscure offering, for there is more of it made.
Never did I mention that 8lbs was needed for testing only.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Ive used it a good bit but the temp feature is only reasonably accurate after the other factors have been fine tuned. QL is just a prediction and I've seen it off by as much as 200 fps. Most of the time I can get it tuned to within 20-25 fps. My 5R rifled barrels are never near quickload predictions. Of course I haven't adjusted drag factors for those barrels either. It is fun to play with that temp feature and see just how much temp affects the loads, often surprising.

I have a QL order out, but presently out of stock. Like everything else. That will help, and at lease get you into the ballpark. I will remember that it's only close.
That seem to be my life story. Thanks!

 

[sfdoc2000]

I have a QL order out, but presently out of stock. Like everything else. That will help, and at lease get you into the ballpark. I will remember that it's only close.
That seem to be my life story. Thanks!

Mike I don't think it will take long. The program is on CD-ROM and they can make up new ones quite quickly. I ordered my update disc two weeks ago and got it 4 days later. .

 

[sfdoc2000]

The other thing I have learned about Quickloads is that burn rate can vary with the load used. The Universal Gas Law, pV=nrT shows that with increasing pressure, the temperature of the gas increases linearly, which in turn makes the powder burn faster. I see this all the time where I often have to "tune" the burn rate coefficient to get the measured velocity to match the predicted velocity with all other factors being equal. This gets really critical when using powder loads near maximum where even small incremental increases in powder weight can drastically increase the maximum chamber pressure into unsafe zones. I try to use slow enough powders to get >98-99% powder burn without over pressurizing the chamber. Best to get 100% burn if you can. The SD's seem to be more consistent with a full burn.
Again, this is a simulation and the results are dependent on the parameters you enter into the computer program. Garbage in = garbage out. You still have to watch for signs of excess pressure in your fired cartridges whenever doing load development. Sometimes even a 50 FPS increase in measured velocity can result from a chamber pressure that is in the red zone. Seabeeken is right, using a .3gn step in your "guided ladder" in medium and large cartridges starting 1 grain below your predicted "best" load is good. If the lowest load gives your measured MV that is at or over where the program predicted the 'best' load would be, then DO NOT fire the high volume loads. Pull the bullets and use the lower load as the new midrange.