I am very dissapointed with Berger bullets regarding the 338 hybrid bullet.

The pressure spike changes the barrel whip?

That makes sence.


The only part I don't get is how a richer mixture of less oxygen (like in an engine) would cause more pressure (spike/detonation)?

I will no doubt be reading a few more books.....

Like to get some on barrel harmonics as I'm fasicinated by idea of identifiing a barrels sweet spot without even firing a shot.
 
For those who want and/or need to shoot at the highest pressure levels to achieve the flattest possible trajectory we are coming up with a version that will hold up to this specific application.

Eric, great news. Thanks.

Yup. Maintaining the current Hybrid in the offering, plus the introduction of a tougher bullet for those running superchargers on the mega-magnums, should make just about all .338 end users happy. One way or another.
 
increased seating depth produces reduced muzzle velocity,with a constant powder charge. And if MV is reduced with increased seating depths, then how can increasing seating depth result in increased pressures? .

Phorwath,

I think there is some confusion that should be clarified first. You ask above how increasing the seating depth will result in increased pressure. I reread my post to make sure I didn't get mixed up. What I said is that making the COAL shorter or reducing seating depth will increase pressure.

I interpret increased seating depth as making the COAL longer or increasing the volume of space in which the powder will burn. Are we saying the same thing differently or do you disagree?

Airgunner 7,

Almost any change you make to the load will have some affect on barrel whip (tune). I agree with Phorwath. If you can figure out how to identify the tune in a barrel without firing a shot you better let the rest of us know. You'll be the first and will become one of the most popular guys in the shooting sports.

Regards,
Eric
 
I think there is some confusion that should be clarified first. You ask above how increasing the seating depth will result in increased pressure. .....

I interpret increased seating depth as making the COAL longer or increasing the volume of space in which the powder will burn. Are we saying the same thing differently or do you disagree?
Eric

???? Now I'm confused. Does the above mean that pressure varies with case volume (proportional)? If that is the case wouldn't velocity go up as COAL is increased?
 
Does the above mean that pressure varies with case volume (proportional)? If that is the case wouldn't velocity go up as COAL is increased?

Pressure will vary with case volume but to what specifc extent is not in my frame of reference to say. It has been my experience and my understand from talking with some knowledgeable folks that as the COAL increases and you reduce pressure, velocity will go down but by how much involves more than I can comment on.

Remember that "tuning" your load involves changing variables. Making your COAL longer allows you to add more powder. More powder means more velocity and possibly more pressure but not always. This depends on how much powder you add and how much you increase the volume in the case.

A program that can show the affects of these changes is QuickLOAD. Run the calculations with the same powder charge but change the seating depth. You will see the pressure change. Then leave the COAL the same and change the powder charge to see the difference. Changing the powder charge to affect velocity and pressure is an obvious one but fewer people understand how COAL affects pressure and velocity.

Regards,
Eric
 
IMO, if you take a 45-70 load and use it in a 458 Lott case, then the velocity and pressure will be lower even though the bullet and powder remain the same.

Most Powley type calculators are based on the Ratio of the volume below the bullet compared to the volume of the barrel to the base of the bullet.

edge.
 
Very interesting thread. I agree that in theory decreasing internal volume (decreasing COAL) would increase in-case pressure. Seating a bullet out (increasing COAL) would decrease the initial in-case pressure. But if you seat your bullet out enough and into the lands, pressure once again spikes, as more needs to build up to push the bullet out directly into the lands.

So after saying all this. If it is really the pressure spike causing the nose slump, a long throated barrel with a bullet seated way out to maximize case volume, and then using more, slower than normal (for that case/bullet combo) powder should allow you to shoot it faster while staying under the pressure ceiling.
 
Phorwath,

I think there is some confusion that should be clarified first. You ask above how increasing the seating depth will result in increased pressure. I reread my post to make sure I didn't get mixed up. What I said is that making the COAL shorter or reducing seating depth will increase pressure.

I interpret increased seating depth as making the COAL longer or increasing the volume of space in which the powder will burn. Are we saying the same thing differently or do you disagree?

Regards,
Eric

Eric,
Within the realm of the seating depth changes that reloaders apply to their cartridges, my experiences over the chronographs, and research, have led me to this current understanding: that increasing COAL increases muzzle velocity, and decreasing COAL decreases muzzle velocity, given equivalent powder charges. Setting the bullet deeper into the cartridge case, equivalent to decreasing COAL and reducing case volume, decreases muzzle velocity. Because muzzle velocity is reduced, I conclude peak pressure is also reduced.

I would agree that my experience and understanding is somewhat counter-intuitive. Unleashing the expansive gases inside a smaller case volume resulting in increased pressures would seem to make the most sense, based on the natural gas law - as applied under conditions of equilibrium. But I believe that what is experienced in real life, is that any increased pressure resultant from the slightly reduced case volume due to seating the bullet deeper into the casing and decreasing the COAL (which would decrease case capacity and be expected to increase cartridge pressure) is more than offset by the reduction in force (and consequent required pressure) by giving the bullet a running start before it engages the rifling - in the bigger picture. In other words, 'increasing' COAL (increasing interior case volume) may actually decrease pressure prior to the bullet engaging the rifling. But the peak pressure experienced as the bullet engages the rifling is increased an even greater quantity, than any reduction in pressure experienced prior to bullet to rifling contact. Such that the net result is increased pressure and increased muzzle velocity.

Consider this to be an extension of the consequence of jamming a bullet into the lands of the rifling, which many of us have experience with. Increasing COAL until a bullet is jammed into contact with the rifling by 0.010" will notably increase cartridge operating pressures, compared to pulling the bullet away from the lands 0.010". With the bullet jammed into the lands, the additional friction and resistance to acceleration caused by the bullet being swaged into the lands causes increased peak cartridge pressure. Decreasing COAL (seating the bullet deeper in the cartridge case and separating it from contact with the lands of the rifling) allows the bullet to start accelerating free of the lands, and by engaging the rifling with a running start, the force required to start the bullet into the rifling is reduced. This is analagous to a lesson from one of my college classes: the force required to keep a moving object (bullet) in motion against another object (the rifling/bore) is less than the force required to initiate the motion of the same stationary object in contact with the other (bullet jammed into contact with the rifling). Stated another way, the coefficient of friction between the two stationary objects is greater than the coefficient of friction between the objects after one moving against the other.

Another way to conceptualize this is by considering how Weatherby freebore chambering allows for increased maximum powder charges and increased muzzle velocity, compared to the same rifle barrel and cartridge chambering without that increased freebore. Giving the bullet that running start prior to engaging the rifling reduces the peak cartridge pressures so much that additional powder is required in order to re-establish maximum cartridge pressures, and experience the resultant higher muzzle velocities. The increased powder charges and muzzle velocities aren't a byproduct of the increased cartridge case volume (or additional volume gained by the freebore - removal of the rifling lands). They are a consequence of the reduced friction and reduced back-pressure realized at the moment the bullet engages the rifling, because it enters the rifling at higher speed and with less friction.

That's my take on it. Bryan or someone else may be able to express this more eloquently than I can, and add, or remove, validation from my explanation. I know this issue is commonly misunderstood, because differing positions are so commonly expressed on the Forums. I began to research and analyze this subject after my chronographs repeatedly recorded slower muzzle velocities when I decreased COAL (reduced case volume by seating the bullets deeper in the cartridge case - farther away from the lands of the rifling).

Appreciate your sharing the facts on this Forum, as you understand them, with respect to the design, production, and troubleshooting of the .338 Hybrids. I hope my Posts don't detract from the purpose of this Thread, or discourage your continued participation in it.

Good shooting!
 
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So after saying all this. If it is really the pressure spike causing the nose slump, a long throated barrel with a bullet seated way out to maximize case volume, and then using more, slower than normal (for that case/bullet combo) powder should allow you to shoot it faster while staying under the pressure ceiling.

This would be one solution that will minimize if not eliminate the potential for high pressure causing nose slump. Maximizing case volume (moving the bullet forward) and using a powder that requires close to 100% fill ratio is typically a great combination regardless. The part about long throats is not as clearly defined.

The pressure increase by the bullet engaging the rifling is not as clear and defined. I'm not saying that it doesn't play a role but I would want to see some thorough testing on this point before I extended my throats for this purpose.

The other thing to keep in mind is whether or not you feed through a magazine. Some things we can adjust and some things must be compromised. The exciting thing is that I believe strongly that we have not optimized the shooting system to the point where it cannot be improved.

Regards,
Eric
 
IMO, if you take a 45-70 load and use it in a 458 Lott case, then the velocity and pressure will be lower even though the bullet and powder remain the same.

edge.

You've created a different scenario with dramatically differing case volumes, than the one I'm discussing. I agree with your opinion with respect to the example/illustration you have created/provided. But I don't agree that your example sheds any light on the scenario being discussed.

Here's the scenario I'm discussing: Take the reduced powder load from the 45-70 load and use it in the 458 Lott case. Now with that 45-70 powder charge held constant, vary the seating depth from having the bullet jammed into the lands (maximizing interior case volume) to the bullet seated deeper into the case (decreasing interior case volume). Then run these .458 Lott loads with every aspect of the load remaining constant other than the seating depths, over the chronograph. Record the MVs. MV will be highest with the bullet jammed into the lands, and MV will decrease as the interior casing volume is decreased by progressively seating the bullet further into the casing.

This is the scenario my comments and discussion apply to.
 
Phorwath,

You explained your point well and I can't argue with you without deliberate testing since my opinions expressed are based on limited observation and mostly the comments made by others more experienced than I am on this subject. Don't worry about saying anything that will keep me off the forums. The only thing that does keep me away is a little bullet company that requires regular attention:)

I will comment on one aspect of your situation regarding shorter COAL producing lower velocities. Could this be the result of more gas escaping around the bullet before it seals in the bore? When moving the bullet forward (longer COAL) are you essentially sealing off the space where the gas can escape thereby producing higher velocities?

I am aware of testing that shows that you can have a higher pressure load and lower velocities. We know for certain that you can use one type of powder that produces high pressure and less velocity compared to another powder that produces less pressure but comparatively higher velocity (stick vs. ball is a generalized example).

That fact that what we are talking about something that results from tens of thousands of PSI expanding in milliseconds it is a wonder that we know anything about such a volitile result. There may be slight variations in chamber and ammo configuration that produce different results even though things appear to be the same.

I can't speak to why you have observed what you express without venturing deeply into speculation. We are working toward having the means to test such things but we are not there today.

Regards,
Eric
 
Very interesting thread. I agree that in theory decreasing internal volume (decreasing COAL) would increase in-case pressure. Seating a bullet out (increasing COAL) would decrease the initial in-case pressure. But if you seat your bullet out enough and into the lands, pressure once again spikes, as more needs to build up to push the bullet out directly into the lands.

.

I agree with you Oliveralan,
This is exactly what I have observed. Especially with bullets seated right on touching the lands.
 
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