If the gun was in parts, i.e. barrel, action and stock separate, can it not be shipped (separately)because it is not a complete weapon? When I lived in IT, I sent everyting thru Vatican post because the local post office could not be trusted to keep their hands out of my stuff that was sent home. Next, maybe try befriending someone in the U.S. armed forces over there. Give them the gun to send back here. Hopefully some of this helped.
HS Precision IMPORTANT quality control and customer service.
- Thread starter EXPRESS
- Start date
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EXPRESS
Well-Known Member
esorensen, That sounds like a nice idea and as luck would have it I have a an American friend with the U.S. Navy who is stationed at the barracks in Sicily.
If I gave him the rifle to send I am pretty sure he'd simply send it, as we've spoken about getting things like scopes from the US and circumventing import tax, but then again I'm also pretty sure I'd be breaking some local laws and could risk having it siezed, even though we "probably wouldn't get caught".
If I can legally assign the firearm to him then maybe it could be done, but it means taking it to Sicily personaly, (700km away) or organizing for it to be shipped to a dealer near him.
Life is complicated in Italy, unless of course, you have friends in the Vatican...
If I gave him the rifle to send I am pretty sure he'd simply send it, as we've spoken about getting things like scopes from the US and circumventing import tax, but then again I'm also pretty sure I'd be breaking some local laws and could risk having it siezed, even though we "probably wouldn't get caught".
If I can legally assign the firearm to him then maybe it could be done, but it means taking it to Sicily personaly, (700km away) or organizing for it to be shipped to a dealer near him.
Life is complicated in Italy, unless of course, you have friends in the Vatican...
RDM416
Well-Known Member
Express,
I do not know the regulations for shipping the rifle back to the States to HS, but if you can, that is exactly what I would do........directly back not through Bignami.
Second, get on the phone the HS and keep working your way up the ladder until you get someone important on the phone. You want a title of at LEAST "general manager" "vice president" or "president". DO NOT rant and rave or call them names on the phone. That will simply give them an excuse to hang up on you. Be polite, direct and forcefull but do not get off the phone the until someone of sufficient rank gives you an answer that you like. If you follow those rules and they get rude with you or hang up, then let us know here. We may not be able to help, but we need to know not to deal with them in the future.
Now....I bought an HS 338 RUM about a year ago. Other than It being about 2 months late I have been pleased with the rifle.
It will shoot 1/2 moa but it took quite a bit of load development to get it there. The groups open up considerably if the barrel is not allowed to cool between shots, especially the third shot, it will walk as much as an inch to the right if I shoot a three shot group quickly.
The safty was "sticky" when I first got it, but it is fine after I worked it a few times.
I did not like the fact the aluminum bedding block was not actually bedded to the action. I did a bedding job on the stock before I fired the first shot.
I am not going to defend HS in your particular instance, but I have been quite pleased with the rifle I have from them and it's performance.
I will also agree with those who have said their products are way overpriced for what you get. Kirby built a 338 Kahn for me during the same time I was waiting on my HS. It was my first custom rifle. Kirby is now building a second rifle for me, and I'm sure it will turn into a 4th, 5th,.......... For the price of an HS you can have Kirby or Shawn or one of the other great smiths on this site build a full custom rifle. Then when (more like IF) you have a problem, you know exactly who to talk to!!
I do not know the regulations for shipping the rifle back to the States to HS, but if you can, that is exactly what I would do........directly back not through Bignami.
Second, get on the phone the HS and keep working your way up the ladder until you get someone important on the phone. You want a title of at LEAST "general manager" "vice president" or "president". DO NOT rant and rave or call them names on the phone. That will simply give them an excuse to hang up on you. Be polite, direct and forcefull but do not get off the phone the until someone of sufficient rank gives you an answer that you like. If you follow those rules and they get rude with you or hang up, then let us know here. We may not be able to help, but we need to know not to deal with them in the future.
Now....I bought an HS 338 RUM about a year ago. Other than It being about 2 months late I have been pleased with the rifle.
It will shoot 1/2 moa but it took quite a bit of load development to get it there. The groups open up considerably if the barrel is not allowed to cool between shots, especially the third shot, it will walk as much as an inch to the right if I shoot a three shot group quickly.
The safty was "sticky" when I first got it, but it is fine after I worked it a few times.
I did not like the fact the aluminum bedding block was not actually bedded to the action. I did a bedding job on the stock before I fired the first shot.
I am not going to defend HS in your particular instance, but I have been quite pleased with the rifle I have from them and it's performance.
I will also agree with those who have said their products are way overpriced for what you get. Kirby built a 338 Kahn for me during the same time I was waiting on my HS. It was my first custom rifle. Kirby is now building a second rifle for me, and I'm sure it will turn into a 4th, 5th,.......... For the price of an HS you can have Kirby or Shawn or one of the other great smiths on this site build a full custom rifle. Then when (more like IF) you have a problem, you know exactly who to talk to!!
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Express.
You just confirmed the 1 Europe theory,
with regards to EU regulations.
The Germans make the rules
The Brits abide by the rules
The French ignore the rules
and the Italians don't know they exist.
It is a very simple matter to personaly import and exprot fire arms in any country in the EU.
If you have any local problems with regards non EU i.e. the states.Check out what they want with regards to shipping to another EU country.
Ship the rifle to me and i'll ship it on to HS for you as a favour. you pay the postage and claim it back from HS.
Alternatively, if your US mate in Sicily is licensed to own firearms, sell thr rifle to him, have him ship it to HS, and when its back, buy it back of him.
Where there is a will there is a way !!!
re the HS ive got in at the mo. it looks like it was just a loose screw on the front base causing the accuracy problems,
But i must say, its a left handed rifle, for some reason its had part of the stock milled out for either a remington safety catch, or the HS bolt stop release on the left side and its been filled, but filled badly. The stock on the rifle is definately not to the standard of the HS stocks ive ordered in for use on remingtons and hansens.
regards Pete
You just confirmed the 1 Europe theory,
with regards to EU regulations.
The Germans make the rules
The Brits abide by the rules
The French ignore the rules
and the Italians don't know they exist.
It is a very simple matter to personaly import and exprot fire arms in any country in the EU.
If you have any local problems with regards non EU i.e. the states.Check out what they want with regards to shipping to another EU country.
Ship the rifle to me and i'll ship it on to HS for you as a favour. you pay the postage and claim it back from HS.
Alternatively, if your US mate in Sicily is licensed to own firearms, sell thr rifle to him, have him ship it to HS, and when its back, buy it back of him.
Where there is a will there is a way !!!
re the HS ive got in at the mo. it looks like it was just a loose screw on the front base causing the accuracy problems,
But i must say, its a left handed rifle, for some reason its had part of the stock milled out for either a remington safety catch, or the HS bolt stop release on the left side and its been filled, but filled badly. The stock on the rifle is definately not to the standard of the HS stocks ive ordered in for use on remingtons and hansens.
regards Pete
Pete, we should check but maybe sending something to the US and back as a repair-guarantee work, not as independent export and import, will avoid some costs... and maybe make import-export paperwork easier.
Now importing stuff from the US takes time occassionally.....
Now importing stuff from the US takes time occassionally.....
JR
Well-Known Member
Just some FYI about HS,
If you spoke to Todd, that is Tom Houghton Sr's son, so you are at VP level all ready, but the next level up is Tom Jr, then Tom Sr.. If I were you I would phone and ask to speak to Todd again, and tell him to tell you exactly what to do fix this problem. HS should incur all costs as well. HS needs to line this up with Bignami, they need to be calling the ball, but if you can, try to send and return a fax to HS to confirm the conversation and the agreement. Then at least there is something in writing...
As far as I know the groups shot for record are still shoulder fired off a bench, with rear bag and front rest, not out of a machine vise....
later
JR
If you spoke to Todd, that is Tom Houghton Sr's son, so you are at VP level all ready, but the next level up is Tom Jr, then Tom Sr.. If I were you I would phone and ask to speak to Todd again, and tell him to tell you exactly what to do fix this problem. HS should incur all costs as well. HS needs to line this up with Bignami, they need to be calling the ball, but if you can, try to send and return a fax to HS to confirm the conversation and the agreement. Then at least there is something in writing...
As far as I know the groups shot for record are still shoulder fired off a bench, with rear bag and front rest, not out of a machine vise....
later
JR
One-Eyed Jack
Member
Express, you have my sympathies. I don't own any HS rifles, but customer service inside the States is generally very good. Without having read all the posts in this thread, let me add:
* HS Precision is not responsible for getting your rifle back to them for repair, that would be your task. I think Pete Lincoln had an excellent idea that you should seize on. In the US, generally the customer pays shipping to the factory or depot for repair, and the factory pays the return shipping costs --- but not always, and it certainly may be different when customer and factory are in different countries with different firearm rules. If you talk with HS again, ask them what their policy is with regard to paying for shipping for quality-control problems.
* Second, I talked to HS Precision about making a lefthanded stock for me a few months ago. I was told they use a righthanded mold, then fill the inlets and recut new ones by hand for a lefthanded stock. That sounds like what you have and it apparently was done in a sloppy manner.
* If you haven't done so, I would shoot the rifle to see whether tightening the barrel fixed the accuracy problem. This was definitely a quality control issue at HS and should never have happened. It's pretty easy to imagine how the headspace could increase and accuracy could find its way to the crapper, and it might have even become a safety issue.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
* HS Precision is not responsible for getting your rifle back to them for repair, that would be your task. I think Pete Lincoln had an excellent idea that you should seize on. In the US, generally the customer pays shipping to the factory or depot for repair, and the factory pays the return shipping costs --- but not always, and it certainly may be different when customer and factory are in different countries with different firearm rules. If you talk with HS again, ask them what their policy is with regard to paying for shipping for quality-control problems.
* Second, I talked to HS Precision about making a lefthanded stock for me a few months ago. I was told they use a righthanded mold, then fill the inlets and recut new ones by hand for a lefthanded stock. That sounds like what you have and it apparently was done in a sloppy manner.
* If you haven't done so, I would shoot the rifle to see whether tightening the barrel fixed the accuracy problem. This was definitely a quality control issue at HS and should never have happened. It's pretty easy to imagine how the headspace could increase and accuracy could find its way to the crapper, and it might have even become a safety issue.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
Hired Gun
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As it turns out, all they did was screw the barrel back in. At the very least the headspace will have changed significantly and all the brass I had fireformed is useless(500 pieces of Lapua).
[/ QUOTE ]
When you say it came loose what are you talking about. Did it back out 5 or 6 turns or more while you were still shooting it? I'm sure it wasn't. Say it was backed out a full ¼ turn. That is only .015". Definitely not enough loss of thread engagement to allow any kind of setback on the threads. Many target rifles are set up as switch barrel rigs and the barrels are only tightened hand tight. There is not that much thrust on the threads. What makes you think the headspace is going to change? If it did it is likely less than you could measure and will have no impact on your 500 pieces of fire formed brass unless it was significantly shortened and the bolt won't close. Then you would only have to bump the shoulders back just a bit to solve that. I'm sure this didn't happen either. I would consider it fixed and would just go start using it and enjoying it.
As it turns out, all they did was screw the barrel back in. At the very least the headspace will have changed significantly and all the brass I had fireformed is useless(500 pieces of Lapua).
[/ QUOTE ]
When you say it came loose what are you talking about. Did it back out 5 or 6 turns or more while you were still shooting it? I'm sure it wasn't. Say it was backed out a full ¼ turn. That is only .015". Definitely not enough loss of thread engagement to allow any kind of setback on the threads. Many target rifles are set up as switch barrel rigs and the barrels are only tightened hand tight. There is not that much thrust on the threads. What makes you think the headspace is going to change? If it did it is likely less than you could measure and will have no impact on your 500 pieces of fire formed brass unless it was significantly shortened and the bolt won't close. Then you would only have to bump the shoulders back just a bit to solve that. I'm sure this didn't happen either. I would consider it fixed and would just go start using it and enjoying it.
EXPRESS
Well-Known Member
By "unscrewed" I mean that the barrel came loose in my hand when I picked the rifle up. I couldn't say exactly how revolutions turns it made before I noticed but it was not even "finger tight" after shooting.
In any event, I have tested the rifle again and using the same new Lapua brass, fully sized as I had done with all of the batch, same load and bullet it did not shoot to the .5MOA garantee. In fact it did not shoot to 1MOA, best it managed was over 1.5MOA.
I will try shooting it some more, but I am not happy, I do not want this rifle anymore and I want to speak to HS about it. I intend on calling them yet again and asking to speak to a senior/owner as of now since I think this has gone far enough and would like a solution. I intend directing them to these threads so they can see follow the entire story as it unfolded.
I would like to think that I could get my money back but I cannot foree it, especially since they did not make the sale, and there is 1; the distributer and 2; the retailer who have put their cut on top of the deal meaning that I paid a lot more than they got for it but I will ask what they are prepared to do to make me happy.
Standby for more updates.
In any event, I have tested the rifle again and using the same new Lapua brass, fully sized as I had done with all of the batch, same load and bullet it did not shoot to the .5MOA garantee. In fact it did not shoot to 1MOA, best it managed was over 1.5MOA.
I will try shooting it some more, but I am not happy, I do not want this rifle anymore and I want to speak to HS about it. I intend on calling them yet again and asking to speak to a senior/owner as of now since I think this has gone far enough and would like a solution. I intend directing them to these threads so they can see follow the entire story as it unfolded.
I would like to think that I could get my money back but I cannot foree it, especially since they did not make the sale, and there is 1; the distributer and 2; the retailer who have put their cut on top of the deal meaning that I paid a lot more than they got for it but I will ask what they are prepared to do to make me happy.
Standby for more updates.
Stormrider
Well-Known Member
Express,
I had been thinking about an HS Precision rifle but you have convinced me that I should look elsewhere.
I had been thinking about an HS Precision rifle but you have convinced me that I should look elsewhere.
EXPRESS
Well-Known Member
I spoke to a certain Tom at HS Precision again after testing the rifle and he seemed very concerned and said he would speak to Bignami to find out what happened.
He spoke of getting the rifle back (unfortunately via Bignami) to their facility for evaluation of the problem and eventual resolution.
I have also finally been contacted via e-mail so I have an easier method of corresponding with them.
The email I got was from Todd, the man I dealt with from the beginning and I have written a lengthy response entailing what I feel and what I would like.
He also mentioned he was disturbed I didn't call him about the rifle once it came back, which I did, and we spoke about it at length.
Here is the letter I wrote them;
Hi Todd,
I have recieved your e-mail. I would like to hear what Bignami has to say about the rifle never being sent to you.
I find it disturbing that you do not recall our phone conversation. I called you immediately after receiving the rifle back from Bignami and explained to you that it had not in fact come back to HS. I also explained that via the repair receipt that I was able to speak to the smith who carried out the reparation and that he had only screwed the barrel back in, without checking the threads, headspacing or testing the rifle. You suggested I try it out and hope that it might shoot well once again.
I called back after testing the rifle. Now that the rifle doesn't hold your .5MOA guarantee, while you may remember that previous to the incident it shot much better than .5MOA with a test target of .178MOA and my best being .25MOA.
After speaking to Tom he suggested I try it once again with the Federal Gold Medal Match 168gn ammunition but since I have now dismantled the scope and mounts that may take more time again, time I am not willing to waste.
As you know well I am not happy at all about this situation.
I purchased this rifle around October of 2004.
I started shooting it in April of 2005 when I got the rings, bases and scope.
It was around August 2004 that the barrel came loose.
I got it back around April 2006.
I got 4 months of shooting out the rifle in two years.
This is not reasonable.
In this time I have made numerous phone calls, sent e-mails, (never answered because I was always told "that e-mail isn't working") sent faxes (told the fax form the site doesn't work) and for all this had absolutely no satisfaction.
Honestly I do not have much faith that Bignami will send the rifle back, if they are prepared to simply replace the rifle that would suffice in solving the problem for me, leaving the problem to them to deal with considering that they were the cause of all this aggro and the two companies (HS & Bignami) can work who went wrong.
Even in the event that they do agree to take the rifle in and send it to you, going on experience I know I will not see the rifle for many months or possiblly a year taking into account the export/import/export/import procedures as well as the Italian testing bank on it's re-entry not to mention repair times and dead time in transit and processing.
From the very beginning, from when the rifle arrived to me I have kept a sort of diary on various internet forums. I have been very fair and objective giving praise where due and criticism where deserved.
I think you should have a look for yourself, there are many thousands of views and replies, around 5000 last time I counted. Not to mention that my signature line contains the links to each thread with the phrase "one very DISSATISFIED customer of HS PRECISION" this means that it appears in each and every post and reply I have ever posted, also prior to changing the signature line and in unrelated threads. This in turn means that the number of people who have seen this story unfold is many, many thousands.
Many of them are understandably negative toward HS and many people in the market for firearms stated they would not be buying form HS in light of what they have seen happen.
This record of all that has occurred can work to you favour.
It is also a good record of each of our phone conversations, which you may have forgotten over time. I supply you with the links so you can check it out of yourself and refresh your memory and see what people are saying about HS Precision quality control and customer service.
HS Precision or Bignami are in the position to make good on all of this and I will dutifully post all positive and negative results there.
Please read all of the links carefully, you owe it to me to at least take the time to read everything considering how much time and money I have wasted on this matter.
Good day to you,
Attilio Marra.
1st range session-
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post45057
Range session –
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post45192
1st quality control issue –
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post45112
read the last post of the page - http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=3&vc=1
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=4&vc=1
quality control thread -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...rt=all&vc=1
Quality control revisited -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...true#Post120830
quality control rant -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...rt=all&vc=1
quality control rant and history -
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/491104074?r=953101145#953101145
quality control rant and history -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...0&fpart=all
He spoke of getting the rifle back (unfortunately via Bignami) to their facility for evaluation of the problem and eventual resolution.
I have also finally been contacted via e-mail so I have an easier method of corresponding with them.
The email I got was from Todd, the man I dealt with from the beginning and I have written a lengthy response entailing what I feel and what I would like.
He also mentioned he was disturbed I didn't call him about the rifle once it came back, which I did, and we spoke about it at length.
Here is the letter I wrote them;
Hi Todd,
I have recieved your e-mail. I would like to hear what Bignami has to say about the rifle never being sent to you.
I find it disturbing that you do not recall our phone conversation. I called you immediately after receiving the rifle back from Bignami and explained to you that it had not in fact come back to HS. I also explained that via the repair receipt that I was able to speak to the smith who carried out the reparation and that he had only screwed the barrel back in, without checking the threads, headspacing or testing the rifle. You suggested I try it out and hope that it might shoot well once again.
I called back after testing the rifle. Now that the rifle doesn't hold your .5MOA guarantee, while you may remember that previous to the incident it shot much better than .5MOA with a test target of .178MOA and my best being .25MOA.
After speaking to Tom he suggested I try it once again with the Federal Gold Medal Match 168gn ammunition but since I have now dismantled the scope and mounts that may take more time again, time I am not willing to waste.
As you know well I am not happy at all about this situation.
I purchased this rifle around October of 2004.
I started shooting it in April of 2005 when I got the rings, bases and scope.
It was around August 2004 that the barrel came loose.
I got it back around April 2006.
I got 4 months of shooting out the rifle in two years.
This is not reasonable.
In this time I have made numerous phone calls, sent e-mails, (never answered because I was always told "that e-mail isn't working") sent faxes (told the fax form the site doesn't work) and for all this had absolutely no satisfaction.
Honestly I do not have much faith that Bignami will send the rifle back, if they are prepared to simply replace the rifle that would suffice in solving the problem for me, leaving the problem to them to deal with considering that they were the cause of all this aggro and the two companies (HS & Bignami) can work who went wrong.
Even in the event that they do agree to take the rifle in and send it to you, going on experience I know I will not see the rifle for many months or possiblly a year taking into account the export/import/export/import procedures as well as the Italian testing bank on it's re-entry not to mention repair times and dead time in transit and processing.
From the very beginning, from when the rifle arrived to me I have kept a sort of diary on various internet forums. I have been very fair and objective giving praise where due and criticism where deserved.
I think you should have a look for yourself, there are many thousands of views and replies, around 5000 last time I counted. Not to mention that my signature line contains the links to each thread with the phrase "one very DISSATISFIED customer of HS PRECISION" this means that it appears in each and every post and reply I have ever posted, also prior to changing the signature line and in unrelated threads. This in turn means that the number of people who have seen this story unfold is many, many thousands.
Many of them are understandably negative toward HS and many people in the market for firearms stated they would not be buying form HS in light of what they have seen happen.
This record of all that has occurred can work to you favour.
It is also a good record of each of our phone conversations, which you may have forgotten over time. I supply you with the links so you can check it out of yourself and refresh your memory and see what people are saying about HS Precision quality control and customer service.
HS Precision or Bignami are in the position to make good on all of this and I will dutifully post all positive and negative results there.
Please read all of the links carefully, you owe it to me to at least take the time to read everything considering how much time and money I have wasted on this matter.
Good day to you,
Attilio Marra.
1st range session-
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post45057
Range session –
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post45192
1st quality control issue –
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...=true#Post45112
read the last post of the page - http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=3&vc=1
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...part=4&vc=1
quality control thread -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...rt=all&vc=1
Quality control revisited -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...true#Post120830
quality control rant -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...rt=all&vc=1
quality control rant and history -
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/491104074?r=953101145#953101145
quality control rant and history -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...0&fpart=all
critter
Active Member
Any response from HS yet?
