How to reduce bullet runout?

[Boss Hoss]

Boss Hoss - "Please provide the backup data that supports your analysis as I am curious how you quantified your conclusions. I hear this all of the time and in the end it is usually based on assumptions and "something somebody heard from someone" else not actual testing and fact finding by the poster."

There are several statements in my post and I have no idea what statements or conclusions your question is related to.
Do you have any actual test data, or even assumptions, contridicting one or more of my statements? If so, don't just ask an open ended question, please tell me/us specifically what you find absent, misleading or wrong in my post.
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QUOTE]

Not to be rude but you are obviously one of the types of shooters who I am referring to. Actually I knew you were when I posted this-----anyone who thinks a Arbor Press seating die is made from a roughing reamer is in the weeds. I do not feel it necessary to go any further.

Here is another post you made that does not make any sense at all---How Do You Size Without A Threaded Die LOL????? Bet it is pretty tough to hold with pliers LOL!!

29-2008, 09:39 PM
boomtube
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Mountians of SW NC, near Asheville
Posts: 164

Re: Lee Collet die or Redding bushing die for best neck sizing?

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I believe the Lee neck die is superior to all others, unless you're a BR shooter. But THEN you wouldn't use threaded dies at all.

 

[Guy M]

Factory rifle you say??? Not at all, two different match-grade .308's, both custom built by Jim Cloward, that wonderful builder of long-range rifles... Krieger barrels, trued actions etc... The arbor press and Wilson dies were a step along the way, when I was trying for my NRA long-range "high master" rating. The dies helped improve my handloads - never got any more of those annoying 9-ring flyers except when I'd forget to watch the wind...

I was so smitten by the arbor press and the Wilson dies though, that they're the only dies I've used for my .25-06, and my .204, both of which are factory rifles. Kind of hard for me to make a comparison since I never went with the standard RCBS type dies with those rifles. They do shoot though...

Except with the .308, I can't make a direct comparison of Wilson dies vs standard dies. With the .308, I saw a definite advantage. My groups and scores tightened right up.

Regards, Guy

 

[boomtube]

Guy - Great. I assumed too much when you said you had a "Savage ...etc.", thinking you simply had a factory Savage. You don't! You have a much more advanced rifle based on a Savage, not a Savage as such!

I'm sure your groups got "tighter" with the BR methods. But Hoss seems to want to know just how much tighter. Actually, I'd like to know too!

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Hoss - you are putting words in my mouth and that ain't sanitary.

I made no mention of seating dies cut with rougher reamers. But you should know that some custom gun makers do cut sizers with the roughing reamers they have chambered the rifle with. I might have elaborated more to keep you from being confused I guess but I wasn't trying to present a treatise on precision handloading, per se, just addressing a side issue of the OP's quesion. You might wish to read "Precision Shoooting - Reloading Guide", "The Accurate Rifle" and "Reloading for Competition" for that.

Weeds or no weeds, you should understand that "roughing" reamers are not rough. Roughers are as well made as finish reamers, just ground to slighly smaller dimensions. Roughers do most of the chamber work so the finisher can better clean up the final cuts, for either die or rifle.

Off-the-shelf sizers and seaters, by Wilson or anyone else, are cut to SAAMI specs which means they may not be a perfect match to the rifle. Those sizers made by a good smith using the rougher WILL be a perfect match.

Speaking of weeds, is it your understanding that hand dies, those used in arbor presses, use shell holders to pull cases from the dies? If so, you are incorrect.

As I stated, it is my BELIEF that the Lee Collet Neck die is superior to all conventional neck dies. That was given as a personal observation and not as a statistical or mechanical fact. I based that statement on the concentricity measurements I've made using several conventional neck sizers from RCBS, Redding and Forster compared to the Lee die when used in four cartridges. The average concentricity, from the same cases, improved by some 30-40%. Is it your belief that I am wrong, and, if so, what do you suggest is superior to the Lee neck sizer? And, to use your own question, what data do you have to support your opinion?

 

[zoeper]

OK Guys, seems like i'm going to have to produce some "data" if i wish to make any further posts in this thread
I took those same 16 cases from the "wobly load" after launching those bergers and measured the outsides of the necks in fireformed state, then i neck sized them in my (wonky sloppy) lee classic cast press using a leymann neck sizer die and measured the necks again. I then loaded up some more of those bergers and measured runout near the tips of the bullets. My findings below. (I am metricated, but for those thinking in inches: 0.001 inch = 0.0254mm)

Case No.****runout****runout****runout
**********after******after*****at tip
**********firing******necksizing*of bullet
-----------------------------------------------
1 *********0.01***** 0.02 *****0.26
2 *********0.03***** 0.02 *****0.09
3 *********0.04***** 0.04 *****0.15
4 *********0.01***** 0.03 *****0.14
5 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.11
6 *********0.03***** 0.02 *****0.19
7 *********0.02***** 0.02 *****0.19
8 *********0.04***** 0.02 *****0.19
9 *********0.02***** 0.04 *****0.24
10 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.15
11 *********0.02***** 0.02 *****0.16
12 *********0.03***** 0.02 *****0.21
13 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.27
14 *********0.01***** 0.02 *****0.18
15 *********0.04***** 0.03 *****0.19
16 *********0.03***** 0.03 *****0.14
--------------------------------------------
Total *******0.42***** 0.42 *****2.86

As can be seen from above, the runout stays the same after neck sizing and most of the runout is created during the seating process.(bullet - seating die mismatch) If i am going to continue with the bergers i would have to invest in another seating die. (keeping in mind that the runout is also AMPLIFIED towards the tip of the bullet)
I will test some sierra game kings as substitute for the bergers next week and if they perform reasonably well and the runout is 4 thou or less, i might continue with the current setup for now.

Thank you all for the input, i find the debate very informative.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Guy - Great. I assumed too much when you said you had a "Savage ...etc.", thinking you simply had a factory Savage. You don't! You have a much more advanced rifle based on a Savage, not a Savage as such!

I'm sure your groups got "tighter" with the BR methods. But Hoss seems to want to know just how much tighter. Actually, I'd like to know too!

----------------------

Hoss - you are putting words in my mouth and that ain't sanitary.

I made no mention of seating dies cut with rougher reamers. But you should know that some custom gun makers do cut sizers with the roughing reamers they have chambered the rifle with. I might have elaborated more to keep you from being confused I guess but I wasn't trying to present a treatise on precision handloading, per se, just addressing a side issue of the OP's quesion. You might wish to read "Precision Shoooting - Reloading Guide", "The Accurate Rifle" and "Reloading for Competition" for that.

Weeds or no weeds, you should understand that "roughing" reamers are not rough. Roughers are as well made as finish reamers, just ground to slighly smaller dimensions. Roughers do most of the chamber work so the finisher can better clean up the final cuts, for either die or rifle.

Off-the-shelf sizers and seaters, by Wilson or anyone else, are cut to SAAMI specs which means they may not be a perfect match to the rifle. Those sizers made by a good smith using the rougher WILL be a perfect match.

Speaking of weeds, is it your understanding that hand dies, those used in arbor presses, use shell holders to pull cases from the dies? If so, you are incorrect.

As I stated, it is my BELIEF that the Lee Collet Neck die is superior to all conventional neck dies. That was given as a personal observation and not as a statistical or mechanical fact. I based that statement on the concentricity measurements I've made using several conventional neck sizers from RCBS, Redding and Forster compared to the Lee die when used in four cartridges. The average concentricity, from the same cases, improved by some 30-40%. Is it your belief that I am wrong, and, if so, what do you suggest is superior to the Lee neck sizer? And, to use your own question, what data do you have to support your opinion?

MY GOD MAN------arbor presses are used for seating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHEN BUILDING CUSTOM DIES THE FINISH REAMER IS USED FOR THE SEATING DIE. I have a safe full of reamers (some roughing and some finish only depending on the caliber made for my sporters and my competition rifles including point up dies for specific SMK bullets. I also use the Buhay tool to sort by bearing surface and I am not going to go into further detail as you are clearly not from your comments someone who is into the upper end of the sport shall we say.

In the competitive BR Game everyone that I know of full length resizes from the point blank shooters to the 1K BR guys like me. Some of these people are world record holders as well as HOF members. I am successful and have learned from some of the best --- the message here is stop digging yourself in deeper!

To put it bluntly I do not have runout issues because my brass is lathe turned and my dies are perfect both chambering and seating. My rifles are not factory as they are not woth putting this much effort into--there is a point of diminishing returns for factory rifles.

 

[boomtube]

"MY GOD MAN------arbor presses are used for seating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

And a bit of neck sizing perhaps?

Enough.

 

[Boss Hoss]

If the die is made from a roughing reamer I would like to see the finished product!!!!LOL

 

[Winchester 69]

Zoeper,

You're fighting two problems. The first is fitting the seating plug to the pointed Berger's tip. You can open it up some with a drill press, milling machine or lathe, and then polish the machined area to better fit the bullet's shape. Other brands of dies will provide you with alternate plug shapes; I don't know about Lee. A gunsmith will help you if you aren't able to modify or replace your die's plug.

The second problem is your press. While many adhere to the idea of compliance in the case/shellholder being advantageous, when the press's ram is furnishing the compliance it is working against you. The ram's force is working to misalign the ram with the workpiece rather than the workpiece aligning itself with a ram whose force is stable. The press needs to have a new ram installed or be replaced itself. It is a factory defect and should be warranted.

Your location I would expect is disadvantageous to your getting satisfactory factory service (I seem to recall your being in South America), but an e-mail to Lee will confirm what they are able to do for you.
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[zoeper]

Winchester 69, Thank you for your comments. I am in South Africa, so i have serious doubts if returning the press would be the answer. I will contact lee and investigate the possibilities.
The other option would be to use the lee iron (it is a sturdy casting) and machine out the press bearing surface to accept a brass bush. i can also have the ram ground for a PERFECT fit. I suspect that if i put in some effort and elbow grease the (tuned)lee can match the best presses out there...
as far as the seating plug goes, i can turn up another seating plug and see if that improves things before plunging into new equipment.

looks like i'm heading for "pimp my gear"

 

[Winchester 69]

I am in South Africa....

Got the hemisphere right, anyway.

I have a suspicion that your press's problems lie in the ram itself, as it was mis-machined for the shellholder. If you get some measurements of the ram's diameter and the press's bore, Lee should be able tell if a ram replacement will be effective.

Unless you're doing the machine work yourself, I don't see the bushing approach as economic, and it may be difficult to align the new bore with the die. And the ram needs replacing because of the shellholder problem. I believe you should be open to just replacing the press as you first surmised if Lee can't help you.

Redding makes very well-made equipment and would be my choice for an O-frame press, but you may have another favored choice. I recall from posts on another forum some of your neighbors making recommendations for equipment dealers in your locale. If you need some help say so in a subsequent post, and I'll try to locate the posts and provide a link.

Lee equipment is inexpensive, but it is also cheaply made and has high production variances. If the warranty can't be exercised in your part of the world, buying it turns out to be a craps shoot. Worth keeping in mind for future purchases.
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