How nonsense becomes fact.

[fiftybmg]

I was reading up on 30-06 AI, and came across an article on Shootingtimes.com , 30-06 AI reloads .

In there the writer describes his journey to producing reloads, and ends with

"... I used the usual pressure indicators of primer appearance and bolt lift to estimate how safe the "hotter" handload recipes were ..."

Usual since when, and by whom.

There is an example of a respected publication spouting often repeated nonsense, that people who don't know better about will assume is the right way to find the limit on hot handloads.

Imagine - "I can't understand why, I added one grain of powder at a time, and the bolt lifted easily each time till everything suddenly blew up ."

There is a way to find the optimum load for your rifle, that could improve on factory data, but that is not it. He measured velocity, but was comparing it to nothing known. The point of recording velocity is to check it against the known limit.

The writer ends with "Coincidentally, the Speer Reloading Manual #4 (circa 1960) includes recipes for the .30-06 AI, and the maximum velocity listed exactly matches my results."

So, by sheer dumb luck, the "feel" and the "look" gave the matching result to a measured proof barrel. At least he's lucky.

This is an example of when nonsense is repeated often enough, it becomes generally accepted fact. You cannot determine pressure change by looking at or feeling metal. It requires physical measurement.

The correct approach is to first find reputable data, and work up the load. If there is no data, there is software nowdays to estimate for you. But not to keep adding powder while checking how the primer looks and how the bolt feels.

 

[AlphaDogs]

There are so many of those old BS myths. My favorite is the low number Springfield one.

 

[Jud96]

That's actually a pretty standard method of working up to pressure. Some loads in some books are over pressure in some rifles and squibs in others. If you're using good techniques with a good scale and workin up in .2-.4gr increments, you're not going to go from perfectly fine no pressures signs to a hand grenade unless you used the wrong powder or wrong charge weight. I've loaded many many combos that aren't in books or have any data for and I have yet to blow up a gun lol. When you feel the bolt get stiff when opening or start to see an ejector mark, then back off at least 0.5 grains and call that your max. There is no safety in just picking what the book says is max and shooting it. You can go off chrono data, but that doesn't always tell you the full story.

 

[AlphaDogs]

Have yet to have any pressure issues or animals not die because I generally use "suggested" loads.

 

[LongBomber]

That stiff bolt lift is used as a sign by many, as is case head expasion, ejector swipes, flattened primers etc.

When you are working on loads you typically don't move up a grain at a time, its maybe a 1/2 grain on a case that holds 70+, or .2 on a case in the 40gr capacity cases. You won't blow your rifle up in one step, unless as pointed out above you swapped in a faster burning powder. You will feel stiff bolt lift a few steps before you lockup the bolt, or "blow" it up.

I have two rifles that would be locked up solid with a book max load, and one that needs 3gr over to match speed/pressure, so that data is not reliable either. Quickload is only as good as your inputs and how accurate your measurements are. Bottom line - If you are going to reload you need to learn to read and measure pressure signs.

 

[Jud96]

That stiff bolt lift is used as a sign by many, as is case head expasion, ejector swipes, flattened primers etc.

When you are working on loads you typically don't move up a grain at a time, its maybe a 1/2 grain on a case that holds 70+, or .2 on a case in the 40gr capacity cases. You won't blow your rifle up in one step, unless as pointed out above you swapped in a faster burning powder. You will feel stiff bolt lift a few steps before you lockup the bolt, or "blow" it up.

I have two rifles that would be locked up solid with a box max load, and one that needs 3gr over to match speed/pressure, so that data is not reliable either. Quickload is only as good as your inputs and how accurate your measurements are. Bottom line - If you are going to reload you need to learn to read and measure pressure signs.

+1000 couldn't agree more with this.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

To clarify, you are saying that ejector swipe and hard bolt lift are not pressure signs?

 

[P7M13]

Everyone should follow the footsteps of the great PO Ackley and perform their own proof tests. If they miss the signs, well, who's to blame them for wandering into the land of Canaan?
Except that Ackley used math first, then followed up with empirical data....

 

[fiftybmg]

To clarify, you are saying that ejector swipe and hard bolt lift are not pressure signs?

I'm saying it's not a pressure measurement, and cannot be substituted for.

Looking at the primer and feeling the bolt is not a pressure measurement.

It does not tell you what the pressure is.

Feeling the recoil is a pressure sign. Why not gut feel also ?

 

[milo-2]

I'm saying it's not a pressure measurement, and cannot be substituted for.

Looking at the primer and feeling the bolt is not a pressure measurement.

It does not tell you what the pressure is.

Feeling the recoil is a pressure sign. Why not gut feel also ?

Have you considered writing a loading manual and letting the rest of us know just how to determine pressure? And the tools needed.
Have you contacted Shootingtimes.com and expressed your concern over this writer giving what you consider unsafe information to the public?
Modern actions and barrels can handle WAY more than saami max pressures. The brass becomes the weak link in the equation. What pressures do to the brass has and always will be the common sense determination of acceptable pressures. And yes, on around the 3rd firing of your brass, the fired primer itself can be an indicator of over pressures.
I am pretty sure the bulk of us could afford some form of pressure trace equipment. Most of us feel it is not needed, we inspect, re-inspect, measure, etc.. our fired brass to determine if the load can be fired safely in all conditions. I bet more than a few of us have been bit on a hot summer day, or a rainy day where what we thought was safe turned out to be over the limit.
Reloading has and always will be for most people a common sense way to fire rds in firearms, even though reading about PO Ackley and Elmer Keith's journeys may make one think otherwise.
People still manage to electrocute themselves today, guys will blow guns up, hammer bolt handles off. The CAUTION sign has always been hung when it comes to reloading.
So, either write up a solution in detail or move on.
Reloading will always be a continuous ongoing learning experience.

 

[338 dude]

I'm saying it's not a pressure measurement, and cannot be substituted for.

Looking at the primer and feeling the bolt is not a pressure measurement.

It does not tell you what the pressure is.

Feeling the recoil is a pressure sign. Why not gut feel also ?

I've only been reloading for about seven years both rifles I hand load for are over book Max and still at very safe levels even in the summer heat I use a combination of bolt lift looking at the primer and brass and velocity to determine the pressures it's not just one you must look at several factors

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

Jeez guess I've been doing it wrong this whole time! It's pretty much industry standard to work up to what your rifle says is your pressure max. What the people who wrote the manual got in their rifle and what you get in yours will not be the same. I believe they're dumbed down anyway so people who dont know how to read pressure signs dont blow themselves up. Those of us who can actually read the signs only use manuals as a basic guide. All my loads are over "max" in a book but my rifle tells me they're fine and that's where they shoot good. Imo, you should be stopping way before heavy bolt lift. You'll usually see ejector swipes before then, atleast in my experience. Once you see your primers start to get flat then the slightest hint of an ejector mark appears, back it off .5-1 grain and that's your rifles safe max with that particular bullet and powder combo. One also needs to take into account different powders have different temp sensitivities. Those temp sensitive powders can catch you off guard. Dont work up a max load at 32 degrees then expect it to be ok in 90 °f. Pick a good stable powder and run with it.The amateur reloader should definitely stay to the book until they good a really good grasp on this stuff.

 

[J E Custom]

I was reading up on 30-06 AI, and came across an article on Shootingtimes.com , 30-06 AI reloads .

In there the writer describes his journey to producing reloads, and ends with

"... I used the usual pressure indicators of primer appearance and bolt lift to estimate how safe the "hotter" handload recipes were ..."

Usual since when, and by whom.

There is an example of a respected publication spouting often repeated nonsense, that people who don't know better about will assume is the right way to find the limit on hot handloads.

Imagine - "I can't understand why, I added one grain of powder at a time, and the bolt lifted easily each time till everything suddenly blew up ."

There is a way to find the optimum load for your rifle, that could improve on factory data, but that is not it. He measured velocity, but was comparing it to nothing known. The point of recording velocity is to check it against the known limit.

The writer ends with "Coincidentally, the Speer Reloading Manual #4 (circa 1960) includes recipes for the .30-06 AI, and the maximum velocity listed exactly matches my results."

So, by sheer dumb luck, the "feel" and the "look" gave the matching result to a measured proof barrel. At least he's lucky.

This is an example of when nonsense is repeated often enough, it becomes generally accepted fact. You cannot determine pressure change by looking at or feeling metal. It requires physical measurement.

The correct approach is to first find reputable data, and work up the load. If there is no data, there is software nowdays to estimate for you. But not to keep adding powder while checking how the primer looks and how the bolt feels.

Good post
Now if everyone will listen.

I work on many rifles that the owners used this philosophy and think the load has to be as hot as possible. SAAMI sets the pressure standard using many factors and if used, there isn't normally any problems as long as the chamber hasn't been altered. These pressures are also normally used in the loading manuals to get the velocity, so pressures will stay in the design limits.

Pressure is not just some arbitrary number It is derived at for many reason and should be followed. Many of the older cartridges used much lower pressures because of design factors of the rifles, components, and simply the dependability of the system.

With pressures getting higher and higher in the New cartridges, Liberties are being taken with many older cartridges and the results are showing more and more on all of the equipment. Maybe It is to easy to follow the instructions on the loading manual and have a cartridge perform like it is supposed to.

Velocity is one of the best ways to reach near max loads. If the velocity is not what you wanted, you may have picked the wrong cartridge for the caliber. My advice to all is follow the SAMMI recommended pressure and stay just below it and you will have many years of fun shooting and not hurt your rifle or the components, the other option is to visit your Gun smith often for problems or repairs.

It is actually very simple, When/if you start seeing ejector marks or and shinny places on the case head, or smashed primers, you have gone to far and should immediately back off on you load By one grain if no other changes are made. Each rifle is different and reading the brass although used frequently should be avoided because it is just an interpretation and not very accurate .

Common sense alone should tell a reloader where the limit is for any cartridge and we should expect no more from it. Joseph Goebbels (Propaganda Minister for Hitler) said (If you tell something that is wrong enough times, It becomes right).

Very good advice Fifty.

J E CUSTOM

 

[memtb]

For those that believe that the "time tested but not guaranteed" methods are "totally" unreliable..... I believe that "strain gauges" are still available for use in measuring pressure developed during the firing of a cartridge! Of course, there is a +/- error factor, plus, the operator needs to be well trained.....or your back to the, "old", "somewhat reliable", "time-tested", "seat of the pants" methods that many of us have used for many years! memtb

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_gauge