Steve,
Having access to a nice chrono and actually using it for it's intended purpose are two different things.
No one is changing the rules here either. However, you are changing your story a bit. At first you say you have a lesser chrono that is inaccurate, then when I point out the short comings of it you automatically switch to the Oehler 43 as your alibi. Interesting. But from the way you speak, you only used it once and it was several years ago?
Goodgrouper,
There is nothing hard to understand here. I said before my views on this will probably vary as compared to the majority on this board. That is not an issue to me. But I get the impression you seem to think that there is no way to tune a long range rifle without a chrono. I simply disagree regardless of hunting or competiton application. That is all. This isn't about one way of doing something and everyone else saying, "yea what he said." I offered a simpler alternative to the original poster.
Just for the record: I went in on an M43 to do the meplat trimming experiement. So its availalble for my use when I want to. Yes I have my Pact chrono here at the house. I use it when I see the need and also understand that what it's telling me isn't 100% trueful. Like I said before, I use it to show trends rather than driving the 3 hrs to use the M43. But if the need arises and a test I want good numbers on I will drive to use the M43.
The original poster asked about a rifle that was shooting 1.5 to 2.5" groups at 100yds and what could be the issue. I simply said he should work on his load is issue and not geting a chrono to have it tell him how bad his current load isn't working. It's all in the load and getting the right powder/bullet/seating depth combination to give consistant results. But I think an important point is this. I never said your method, or anyones elses wouldn't work. I offer a simpler alternative and gave examples of when it worked for me. Work on your load first and foremost and get it grouping. Then apply any tricks you want to tweek that last 10%. That is it in a nutshell.
It is not the end all be all of load development because it is shooting at known, even distances and usually includes custom equipment which is much easier to work with.
I don't agree with your view in that shooting at paper at known distances puts less importance on velocity variation over long range hunting. Regardless of application and the actual long range distance being shot, velocity variation is important. It take a good grouping rifle to consistantly win at a long range BR match the same as it takes to hit your target while long range hunting. When you look at winning agg measurements there isn't any room to have large velocity variations to shoot 4-6" aggs at 1000yds. I guarentee you a good winning agg didn't have a large SD. I simply don't care what the SD was and I know that it's low because the groups said so. If you change your load, seating depth, or something else and vertical appears in your groups.... Opps wrong direction. All without a chrono.
As far as tuning custom equipment, I agree it's easier to tune. But if you took a survey on this site of the amount of custom equipment used here for long range hunting I think you would agree that number is pretty high. The amount of true factory rifles used on this board would probably be low. There is some darn good equipement used by members on this board. I've been in Dave Tooley's shop and seen more than one name of shooters from this board written on boxes for shipment or awaiting work. Dave isn't your average hunting rifle gunsmith. So to me your point of BR guns are easer to tune because they are all custom doesn't hold merit knowing the quality of equipment used by long range hunters.
You are the one who brought up paper punching in a somewhat condescending manner to try and intimidate others into believing your POV. It doesn't work with me because I am also a 1k paper puncher (and further) and a long range hunter and I develop loads for factory rifles that kill game at long distance. So I do two more things than you do and I do them with the help of a chronograph.
I can't help that you took my comments in that manner and it wasn't intended to intimidate anyone. I know how they were intended. I have seen too many times guys show up and shoot a BR match(es) and then they are experts because they have done it for a short time. I put up some of my credentials (against my better judgement) to simply say I have a track record over a long period of time playing this game and have seen and tested the results and I'm not someone simply blowing smoke on a long range hunting message board. Then I gave an example from last year about tuning a rifle with 3 groups at 1000yds, taking that info learned from those 3 groups and placing very well at 600yds the next weekend with the same load. Basically your "supportive argument details" you mentioned. Fact not fiction.
GG, you don't know me well enough to say how many things you do or don't do more than me. I'm a long range hunter, I jsut don't talk a lot about it. Hunting is personal to me. One of my best buddies who is much older than I am had a 6.5-300 WWH and shot deer at long range starting back in the '70 til early 2000s. I would go with him and watch. Then he let me shoot it and I was hooked. Then around '83 or so he decided to go to Willimasport to see how well his equipment would do it competition. He spent the next 15yrs going to every match. And I was with him the majority of the time. I've been going to matches ever since. Bob is retired from competition due to issue with his eyes. But we always talk shop when I see him. so he stays in the game.
I do shoot further and lesser yardages than 600 and 1000yd with various rifles. Including PPCs also. But what I learn at 600 & 1000yd competitions with several hundred rifles over a years time is invaluable once you cut through a lot of mis-conceptions about BR. There has always been a thing about hunters against BR stuff for whatever reason. If you take away the stuff about machine gunning rounds, having the rifle track in the bags, that a lot of people focus when talking about BR.. the same basic physics still apply and need to happen to place bullets in small groups or the lungs of a deer at long range. So to me they are two in the same things with different method of delivery.
I have a question. You say that you "work" on your load and you change the sd by going up .5 grain in weight. But if you aren't shooting through a chrono when you do this, how do you know if you improved your sd on that load? The paper ain't gonna tell you that the .5 grain you added reduced your sd from 15 to 5. Only a chrono can do that!
Agreed. What I have said many times already, is that reading the group tells you that. In my first post I told about taking my factory Sendero in 300 Win Mag and how the original load shot great at 100yds. But at 1000yds it had all vertical. Adjusted the load based on experience and bingo the vertical went away and shot more than 1 group in registered BR competiton in the 7"-9" range. I never used a chrono to do that load adjustment. I can't say it any more clearer than that. Those targets told me everything I needed to know. It should be noted though that 100yd targets will mask a lot of this but it becomes easy to see starting around 200 to 300yds. The old saying is that 100yds won't tell you what works, but it will tell you what doesn't work. Going back to the 1.5" to 2.5" groups. That load wasn't working at all.
Steve, I am sorry but you still simply aren't getting what the majority of the posters in this thread are telling you! We are saying that you work on your load with the help of a chronograph! I don't see what is so hard to understand here. The chrono is a tool to help in load development, not just a gadget to use in isolated experiments once in a blue moon.
GG, I can read what everyone is saying. But you seem to think it's "use a chrono or no way at all". To me that isn't the case. It's that simple. We disagree... not a problem. I load develope all the time w/o a chrono for various rifles. At one time I got really into a chrono numbers with 2 rifles but found I was wasting time setting it up, tearing it down, entering numbers in spreadsheets. Then stopped doing that and took that time and used it to concentrated on shooting and load developement. That is simply my way. That is all.
The only thing I did say and will still stand by it... goes back to the original post that said he wanted help to troubleshoot a rifle that was shooting large groups at 100yds and wondered how to reduce his SD. I said using a chrono for that was a complete waste of time knowing the size of his groups. That I truely beleive in. No matter what the rifle or application is. If he had posted saying his rifle was shooting say 3/4" or better and wanted to improve those groups, then that might merit using a chrono in his or your case. Me personally still wouldn't. But as I have said many times that is simply my way.
After several posts here I find myself saying the same thing repeatidly. So lets simply agree to disagree and leave it at that. After all KQguy doesn't own his problem rifle anymore.
Steve
