How do the factories load "universal" high performance cartridges??

[antelopedundee]

Vettepilot, When you said that they have powders that we don't have access to, do you think it is powders they manufacture in house, or do you think it is a blend of powders that may be available to reloaders but are blended to get the desirable results ? Just wondering what your thoughts are because I have no clue.

They buy in large lots like maybe 50,000 pounds or more. If it doesn't meet specs for a cannister powder, then the loading companies have the means to evaluate its suitability for loading certain cartridges. Or the manufacturer supplies basic info about the lot which the ammo makers can use to work up a load. A load requiring 50 grains of powder should yield 140 rounds per pound or 7 million rounds out of 50,000 pounds and probably not a huge run for some places. IIRC IMR7828 was suspected of existing long before it was available as a cannister powder.

 

[Lee Goodwin]

Regarding Hornady Superformance, it is pretty fast in 270 win 130 gr and really fast in 30-06 165gr - compared to what I can hand load with standard (non-magic) powders. But it doesn't shoot worth a darn. 2 MOA at best.

It's not the bullet, as the SSTs shoot < .75 MOA in the same guns with different powders and charge weights. Same with seating depth. I seat the at the canalure - same as factory.

As I said previously, flat primers in all guns. Noticeable bolt lift in my bolt guns. In my gas guns, the rims get torn up also. All at temp < 80DegF. I'd be scared to see what would happen here in Texas in the summer.

Don't get hung up on velocity. Accuracy first, and then velocity. In the right cartridges with RL26, you can have both - and outrun even the fastest factory ammo without pressure signs

That super performance is scary hot powder.

 

[Bob2650]

If you do the research and hunt down the factory hunting ammo with a projectile that has a Tangent Ogive it might have a better chance of solving the complicated accuracy problem that factory ammo sometimes has.
If you have a true SAAMI chamber with no "special" features then any factory ammo made to the SAAMI spec for your chamber should be safe.

Those warnings to start out light when reloading are true and worthy of following but mostly they are lawyer proof boiler plate that reloading manual publishers found necessary because of the stupid mistakes that humans sometimes make when reloading.

Would be cool to have a list of all tangent ogive hunting bullets used in factory ammo. I don't recall ever seeing a list like that.

Well, I was somewhat afraid this would happen. Even though I tried to specify that my question related to velocity and pressure, some of you jumped into the accuracy side of the equation.

I don't think the accuracy angle is too tough to figure. If they use a high quality and consistent bullet, figure out the most common jump it likes, and load it to that jump on a SAAMI chamber drawing, it ought to shoot "minute of deer" in most guns, at the very least.

And one might say, "well, they just load up to SAAMI max pressure, less a small fudge factor, and there you have "magic factory ammo" as regards velocity.

But we are warned that "every single gun is different; even two consecutive guns off the assembly line", AND the many times quoted: "This load was safe in THIS gun only; yours will be different." "Start 10% low and work up."

Now of course we will work our loads up, both for safety, and to fine tune a load for best performance in our particular gun. But I still wonder how the factories can produce ammo that nudges the upper limit in pressure, yet is safe in all the different, individual, guns out there.

Vettepilot

 

[Bob2650]

Here is a list from a long time ago:

Nosler bullets are tangent, Sierra matchkings are tangent, some Hornadys are except amaxs, Lapua scenars are almost hybrid kinda tangent/secant but do very well being jumped, Berger vlds are secant except the hybrid otm's they are dual ogive. Swift sciroccos are secant, Barnes are tangent mostly and do well when jumped a long ways.

 

[Tulsa Reiner]

243winxb,
Are there indeed SAAMI velocity standards for the various cartridges?
I guess "pressure standards" is essentially equal to "velocity standards."
I've never seen reference to "velocity standards" before,

 

[Stammster]

That super performance is scary hot powder.

Superformance powder by Hodgdon is not necessarily the same powder used by Hornady in their Superformance line of factory ammo. In 270 and 30-06 it is definitely not Superformance powder - based on my forensic analysis.

 

[flyguy1]

I'm guessing the ammo companies aren't going to tell, as the competition, particularly for military sniper rounds, obviously very accurate and equally obviously not tuned to a single rifle, is fierce. Even if someone on here worked for an ammo company they would have a non-disclosure agreement.

 

[asd9055]

I was under the impression ammo military snipers Was hand loaded by military personnel. At least that is what they showed on one of those discovery military channels

 

[J E Custom]

So we've all seen it advised a bazillion times; "....work up a load slowly in your gun, watching for pressure signs". And, "If you change any component, start over on load workup with a reduced charge".

Now sometimes it is difficult when reloading to match the performance, at least in terms of velocity, of factory loaded ammo. To be competitive, and keep the buying public happy, (and brand loyal), factory ammo has to have relatively high velocity performance for each given cartridge.

So how do they do it? How do they make rounds with respectable velocity, that are safe in "any gun of modern manufacture in good condition"??

I realize they use powders that we don't have access to, but where's the "magic"? High performance loads, that work in ANY gun, (and are safe) ,with no gun specific load workup.

What am I missing here??

Vettepilot

It is common for some factory loads to use proprietary powder charges that we cant get. they will have a set of specifications for there load that the powder manufactures must meet that Is often duplex loads with a binder to keep them in order, or a blend of powders that the powder manufactures can't/won't sell to the public.

Before all the powder burn rates that we have today, some experienced re loaders practiced this with great caution. and had certain rules that could not be deviated from for safety.

One example I encountered was a load that was impossible to duplicate the velocity at safe pressures . After pulling one of the bullets I found a solid, compressed powder charge that after digging it out It would not go back in the same case in a loose powder form.

I still don't know how they cast the powder charge because i have used compressed charges with a drop tube and never seen powder that was this hard and like solid rocket fuel for models.

Normally these loads are faster, but no more accurate, unless your barrel likes velocity. Most ammo companies don't want to load these load because of the liability of being shot in poor or older firearms. And this practice is only used On new firearms with new chamberings (Like the 6.5 Creedmoor) because it will be less risk in new firearms, and if the rifle has been re chambered or re barreled, you are on your own.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Tripodmvr7]

I have paid a visit to our local PMP ammo producer and they reload with equipment that dates from the second world war. These machines loaded many millions of 303 rounds for the war effort.

As they worked an eight hour day shift only, their method was to load up a few cartridges (early in the morning) with incremental loads and shoot them to confirm accuracy. Once they had experimentally determined the load it was set on the machines and the loading of ammo for the day commenced. Their quality standards do not match American ammo companies, but for hunting purposes this was sufficient. They also produced a lot of 5.56 and 7.62x51 ammo.

I have for many years done Quick Load calculations with a plus 90% success rate and have done a theoretical exercise with a 303 load that calculates as on a node for a 24 inch barrel. If I reduce the barrel length to 20 inches the speed is lower, but it again meets the barrel time that is on another node. This explains why the ammo performs reasonably to very well in different firearms.

 

[tankgijohn72]

I was under the impression ammo military snipers Was hand loaded by military personnel. At least that is what they showed on one of those discovery military channels

Army shooting teams use handloaded munitions. Snipers use mil-spec mass produced ammo.

 

[asd9055]

Army shooting teams use handloaded munitions. Snipers use mil-spec mass produced ammo.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Warbird2006]

That is a great question. I bought a 240 Wby a few years back from a freind of mine. As soon as I got it I called Wby customer service to try and get some insight from them re: bullet jump, seating depth and powder choices to start the process. I was not given any information and was told that if I wanted the rifle to shoot like it was intended, then I need to shoot Wby factory ammo. My next question to the rep. was- is Wby going to produce any of the short mags like 300 wsm or 270wsm ? His response was why would Wby produce those calibers when they already produce the finest, most accurate rifles in the world. I thanked him for his time and decided I would not own another Wby rifle. I am now doing my research to turn that rifle into a 6.5/284. I am new to the rifle build community so it is a long process. I understand that the "formula" manufacturers use for their loads is secret- I get it- but I also think it would benefit gun/ammo manufacturers to be a little more cooperative with the reloading community. Again Great Question!

Looks like you are not only new to the shooting world, but also to a corporate world, haha

 

[Warbird2006]

Did you call/ email and ask? Just curious what the response was.

Boy oh boy, please research before you respond, it looks bad. Or you are brand new in this......