So in another forum i have I have asked a few questions about tighting up my groups on my 22-250 and we talked about Concentricity Gauges (Tough word to say) and bullet run out. Problem I've come to conclude from these talks is that bullet runout can't be fixed once found. But now after some searches I've seen this. Hornady came out with a new gauge this year that not only finds bullet runout and case neck thickness but also it fixes bullet runout to zero. Anyone read about this or tried it? What do you guys think?
Hornady Concentricity Gauges?
- Thread starter oberg
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From what I understand, no gauge can set runout to zero, but they can reduce it. Hornady and some others claim to be able to reduce runout. IMHO, I prefer to never develop runout and only use my Sinclair concentricity gauge to prevent mass runout errors during reloading, or cull specific loads with increased runout. I believe this produces a better product than trying to "fix" screwups leading to increased runout
woods
Well-Known Member
The Hornady is not out yet to my knowledge
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/search2&keyword=concentricity
There has been another tool that will measure and fix concentricity that has been out for quite a while, the Bersin Tool
It is not as universal as the Hornady looks like since the case body needs to fit down in the hole in the body but it works very well. However it is a runout reducing device, not a runout eliminating device. I suspect that the Hornady will be similar. Through sizing with the Lee Collet I keep runout to a minimum and will only apply the pressure to reduce runout on about 25% of the cases I reload. You can chase the runout from one side of the case to the other, back and forth if you are not careful and have to learn what is acceptable, about .001" to .0005" for me. A very few will have perfect runout. Once it gets that low then I do not believe it makes any difference.
What the Bersin is really good for and what the Hornady should be good for is to change that equally rare bullet that has a lot of runout, .003" or so. Those you can reduce the runout to be within your range and prevent flyers.
You will also find that bullet grip makes a big difference in how well you can reduce runout by pushing it to one side or the other. A case with .003" bullet grip will push and stay in the right place whereas a case with .001" bullet grip is too easy to push and easier to push too far and chase concentricity around and around.
One thing to consider is that you are pushing the bullet in the neck and you are not correcting runout on the neck so it could be said that you are just canting the bullet in the neck. Either of these tools will teach you a lot about runout causes and solutions.
Best to load straight ammo in the first place. IME, you can only reduce the runout to about 25% of whatever runout you start with. For example if you have a case with .004" runout then the best you can do is reduce it to .001" and one with lower runout of .002" can be reduced to .0005".
YMMV
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/search2&keyword=concentricity
There has been another tool that will measure and fix concentricity that has been out for quite a while, the Bersin Tool
It is not as universal as the Hornady looks like since the case body needs to fit down in the hole in the body but it works very well. However it is a runout reducing device, not a runout eliminating device. I suspect that the Hornady will be similar. Through sizing with the Lee Collet I keep runout to a minimum and will only apply the pressure to reduce runout on about 25% of the cases I reload. You can chase the runout from one side of the case to the other, back and forth if you are not careful and have to learn what is acceptable, about .001" to .0005" for me. A very few will have perfect runout. Once it gets that low then I do not believe it makes any difference.
What the Bersin is really good for and what the Hornady should be good for is to change that equally rare bullet that has a lot of runout, .003" or so. Those you can reduce the runout to be within your range and prevent flyers.
You will also find that bullet grip makes a big difference in how well you can reduce runout by pushing it to one side or the other. A case with .003" bullet grip will push and stay in the right place whereas a case with .001" bullet grip is too easy to push and easier to push too far and chase concentricity around and around.
One thing to consider is that you are pushing the bullet in the neck and you are not correcting runout on the neck so it could be said that you are just canting the bullet in the neck. Either of these tools will teach you a lot about runout causes and solutions.
Best to load straight ammo in the first place. IME, you can only reduce the runout to about 25% of whatever runout you start with. For example if you have a case with .004" runout then the best you can do is reduce it to .001" and one with lower runout of .002" can be reduced to .0005".
YMMV
Winchester 69
Well-Known Member
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- Mar 29, 2007
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A concentricity gauge tells you if you have a problem, and then helps you isolate it to tools, materials or process. Once you have stabilized your method, the gauge is less important. Correcting the loaded rounds merely supports an out-of-control production system.
boomtube
Well-Known Member
I haven't used the Bersin tool, haven't even seen one, sure haven't seen the Hornady so I'm no expert on the subject. But, that said, I question the value of such a device.
Run-out comes from the case neck so correcting it has to bend the neck. Support for the bender-pusher looks to come from the body of the bullet and the base of the neck, or body of the cartridge, with the pusher working against the two supports. That would seem to put a LOT of bending (i.e. deforming) force on the bullets. Thus it seems the potential for slight bullet damage would be significant even if it were invisible to the naked eye. lightbulb ???
My solution? I want a bunch of you guys to buy either one of those expensive tools and use it for a large number of rounds. Then come back and tell us - me - if the thing works good enough to overcome the potential harm it could do.
Run-out comes from the case neck so correcting it has to bend the neck. Support for the bender-pusher looks to come from the body of the bullet and the base of the neck, or body of the cartridge, with the pusher working against the two supports. That would seem to put a LOT of bending (i.e. deforming) force on the bullets. Thus it seems the potential for slight bullet damage would be significant even if it were invisible to the naked eye. lightbulb ???
My solution? I want a bunch of you guys to buy either one of those expensive tools and use it for a large number of rounds. Then come back and tell us - me - if the thing works good enough to overcome the potential harm it could do.
I want a bunch of you guys to buy either one of those expensive tools and use it for a large number of rounds. Then come back and tell us - me - if the thing works good enough to overcome the potential harm it could do.
I agree as I've been wondering about this gadget myself since I saw it in the Midway catalog.
The overall concensus seems to be to prevent runout and not "fix it". Money spent on a reliable runout gaugericeless. Money spent on an expensive tool to correct runout: less money to spend on more important/useful things... like beer! (not while reloading of course)
riceless. Money spent on an expensive tool to correct runout: less money to spend on more important/useful things... like beer! (not while reloading of course)Like the idea of having others try it and report back to us.
And yes alcohol is one of thoughs things in life you need (like Guns)
But to the subject... So what I've been getting is that it is better to get a less expensive and just find the bullet runout and they try to currect it through your dies and such? Correct?
And yes alcohol is one of thoughs things in life you need (like Guns)
But to the subject... So what I've been getting is that it is better to get a less expensive and just find the bullet runout and they try to currect it through your dies and such? Correct?
My 2 cents. Buy a good concentricity gauge. I have tried 3 and returned 2 (RCBS/Forster) only to stick with the Sinclair model. It is a cadillac and not that expensive. (100$) The only downside is that dings in your case may cause false runout, but they are easy to spot. Test runout at each important step and if it increases, take the necessary steps to correct it before you proceed. All my finished loads have no more than 0.001 bullet runout or its back to the drawing board. Certainly no need to "fix" this amount of runout.
boomtube
Well-Known Member
"The overall concensus seems to be to prevent runout and not "fix it"."
Your concensus aside, the question is, "How well does the tool work?"
Your concensus aside, the question is, "How well does the tool work?"
Runout is like a hangover..........preventable for sure......and there is never any shortage of morning after preachers & sermons............but that's not the subject of this thread.
OK.....I admit that I've been a bad boy & some of my hand loads have more than acceptable run out.
Does the Hornady tool fix runout? .............and if so to what degree?
Does the application of the tool to factory ammo pay off in tighter groups?
Is this thing an effective tool for the purposes claimed or a bright red door stop?
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
I'll declare for you that ammo benders do not work to provide better shooting performance. They also do not work to reduce, or even affect -runout.
Take any loaded cartridge which has been taken to concentric on an ammo bender, and spin it on a Sinclair runout gauge. You will then see that the catridge is not straight, and still has plenty of runout to chamber.
Take any loaded cartridge that measures zero on a Sinclair runout gauge, and spin it on an ammo bender. You will then see that the cartridge is truly concentric as well.
The object of measurement is not to seek a lowest reading. It is to validate what you have.
nheninge is right
Take any loaded cartridge which has been taken to concentric on an ammo bender, and spin it on a Sinclair runout gauge. You will then see that the catridge is not straight, and still has plenty of runout to chamber.
Take any loaded cartridge that measures zero on a Sinclair runout gauge, and spin it on an ammo bender. You will then see that the cartridge is truly concentric as well.
The object of measurement is not to seek a lowest reading. It is to validate what you have.
nheninge is right
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It's all declarations, theory & conjecture until the ruler is on the target paper measuring the groups.
lightbulbI'm going to let the target paper be the presiding judge in this trial.
If, all other things being equal, I see improvement then I've bought a worthwhile product.
If I've been sold a gimmick it won't be the first or likely the last time.
Opinions are a dime a dozen..........let's hear some field reports by shooters who have actually tried the tool & have or haven't noticed improvements in the performance of their hand loaded &/or factory ammo.
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Had a Bersin tool and got rid of it. Just a gimmick and I have serious doubts the Hornady is better. On another forum, there was a report that Tony Boyer opined you cannot bend one neck and re-use it thereafter, as it will continue to throw that shot from the remainder of your group. I don't know if this is true, but why take a chance. As others have said, you can reduce runout with your dies and careful neck turning. That is the way to go.
