Hornady 4DOF Ballistic Program

[AaronSkipDavidson]

Guys,

Just wanted to share this product announcement. I've been able to participate in testing, and I've seen the backend development of this program for the past year. We are very excited about where this advancement will take the industry! A 4 DOF system for civilian consumption is not available anywhere else! The reason is it requires too many Aerodynamic Coefficients similar to Ballistic Coefficient. Because Hornady is measuring the bullet flight characteristics with a Doppler Radar, we now have those coefficients. So calculations of earth-based effects, spin drift, and aerodynamic jump are true solutions, not analytical approximations!

Hornady® 4DOF™ Ballistic Calculator - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Hornady® Announces New Drag Coefficient Based Ballistic Calculator - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

[ame]https://youtu.be/LCpy6mZAQZs[/ame]

 

[Barrelnut]

Wow! PLEASE tell me they will make an app!

 

[mechengr]

Ran a few simulations for comparison and so far the new Hornady 4 DOF solver seems to be slightly more optimistic than when using Applied Ballistics G7 BC's in the Gseven program at gseven.com/ballistic-program. The real test will be comparing to field results.

Gotta say, pretty impressed with the direction Hornady has been going lately

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Marketing Hype in Ballistics - The Hornady 4DOF Solver

This is the start of the Truth In Performance campaign. Applied Ballistics' mission is to be the complete and unbiased source of external ballistics information for long range shooters. Gaining the knowledge required to master long range shooting is very difficult, even when you have good information. Unfortunately the hyper-marketing/advertising culture we live in is constantly pushing out misleading or outright false information to promote products.

In addition to exploring the unknown areas of ballistics and publishing original information, it's also part of our mission at Applied Ballistics to address the many questions which arise from the overwhelming marketing hype.

This is a technical article that explains some of the marketing hype related to the Hornady 4 DOF ballistic solver. We go in to Aerodynamic Jump and Spin Drift. If you are interested in learning the truth about 6DOF, 3DOF, MPM, and the Aerodynamic Jump Calculation Hornady is claiming, this article will help separate the fact from fiction.

Some Lead and some Follow. AB has been modeling spin drift, Aerodynamic Jump, Coriolis, WEZ and other advanced calculations for a long time. We literally wrote the book on it, and have been providing these calculations in our solver for years. In the end, its results that matter, so trust the professionals that the professionals go to.

Article: http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Truth In Performance/Hornady4DOF.pdf

 

[SHRTSHTR]

I have my popcorn in hand!

I see the ELD X is getting thrown into the marketing hype mix as well.

Ray

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

WOW! Sounds like complete, unbiased, and ONLY source...

I'm not Hornady's defender of the faith! However, I do have a keen interest in Hornady as a company. I've been really impressed with the effort Hornady has put into advancing our sport. As far as I know, the huge expense and effort to develop this solver and measure each of these bullets in not rendered into a commercialized/monetized product. The solver is free to use and prove/disprove the calculated results. More features are available and will be incorporated over time (eg, earth based effects) along with additional bullets. One thing we can learn from Bryan's article is that Hornady's solver is different. Let's see how it develops.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

WOW! Sounds like complete, unbiased, and ONLY source...

I'm not Hornady's defender of the faith! However, I do have a keen interest in Hornady as a company. I've been really impressed with the effort Hornady has put into advancing our sport. As far as I know, the huge expense and effort to develop this solver and measure each of these bullets in not rendered into a commercialized/monetized product. The solver is free to use and prove/disprove the calculated results. More features are available and will be incorporated over time (eg, earth based effects) along with additional bullets. One thing we can learn from Bryan's article is that Hornady's solver is different. Let's see how it develops.

Applied Ballistics has had a free solver on the website for a long time that had the correct calculation for Aerodynamic Jump. Which was tested/proven using live fire, not estimation. It also includes advanced features like WEZ. Ballistics Calculator | Applied Ballistics, LLC

 

[mitch260]

WOW! Sounds like complete, unbiased, and ONLY source...

I'm not Hornady's defender of the faith! However, I do have a keen interest in Hornady as a company. I've been really impressed with the effort Hornady has put into advancing our sport. As far as I know, the huge expense and effort to develop this solver and measure each of these bullets in not rendered into a commercialized/monetized product. The solver is free to use and prove/disprove the calculated results. More features are available and will be incorporated over time (eg, earth based effects) along with additional bullets. One thing we can learn from Bryan's article is that Hornady's solver is different. Let's see how it develops.

If you read the article you will see that facts are used to discredit the Hornady marketing ploy. It is unbiased, it's just the truth. This article wouldn't have had to have been written if Hornady didn't make false, or twisted, claims. But the proof is in the pudding, and based on the facts, it's nothing new or all that precise due to the fact that the data that Hornady uses to calculate the angle of attack is all estimated. And that is what is supposed to make this solver more accurate. Hornady's "efforts" are just following what others have already done and created a market for.

 

[BryanLitz]

WOW! Sounds like complete, unbiased, and ONLY source...

I'm not Hornady's defender of the faith! However, I do have a keen interest in Hornady as a company. I've been really impressed with the effort Hornady has put into advancing our sport. As far as I know, the huge expense and effort to develop this solver and measure each of these bullets in not rendered into a commercialized/monetized product. The solver is free to use and prove/disprove the calculated results. More features are available and will be incorporated over time (eg, earth based effects) along with additional bullets. One thing we can learn from Bryan's article is that Hornady's solver is different. Let's see how it develops.

Aaron,

The first rule of critical thinking is to consider the source. Hornady pays you money to promote their products because you are in the business of promoting things and do a very good job at it. At the end of the day, you're judged (and paid) by how many viewers you have and how much influence you can demonstrate to your advertising customers. This isn't good or bad, but it's an important thing for a critical thinker to consider when hearing both sides.

We (AB) also have a product to promote. Our product is unbiased information, and at the end of the day, we are judged and paid according to how helpful and accurate our information has been to people. In our business, we can't do 'brand loyalty'. We can't bend facts for advertising. Our business is 'fact loyalty'. Again, it doesn't mean we are good or bad, right or wrong. It's just something a critical thinker will consider when hearing all sides.

-Bryan

 

[BergerFan222]

Applied Ballistics has had a free solver on the website for a long time that had the correct calculation for Aerodynamic Jump. Which was tested/proven using live fire, not estimation. It also includes advanced features like WEZ. Ballistics Calculator | Applied Ballistics, LLC

Hornady's new 4DOF solver is using custom drag tables, which AB has said are more accurate than G1 or G7 BC based models.

I know AB sells tools (or has in the past) that use custom drag tables, but does the free Ballistic Calculator in the link use custom drag tables, or is it limited to the less accurate calculations based on the G1 or G7 drag models?

 

[BryanLitz]

Applied Ballistics free online solver uses a library of 500+ measured G1 and G7 BC's and also works with any other BC you input. There are several ways to access AB's 500+ custom drag models but they're all paid, with the easiest path being a $30 mobile app and $1.99 in-app purchases for the drag models.

Hornady's online-only solver allows you free access to their 34 bullet models.

A box of bullets costs about $30-$60. You get what you pay for.

-Bryan

 

[Scottytuned]

I went through the 4DOF and was woefully disappointed with the amount of bullet options, especially since my long range go to (338 Berger Hunter Hybrid) wasn't listed. For this reason, I'll absolutely stick with the AB free calculator that is far more accurate for me.

I will make one observation though, and that is the note of the critical thinking. I read through the AB explanation and found it to be very well written even for a novice like me to understand. Bryan - there is a reason I go to Berger bullets, and that is partly because of your expertise as one of the worlds probably best ballisticians and knowing I can trust it. With that being said, and this is just third party looking in, I also understand why some might critically think why someone with Berger in their signature line might be opposed to something a rival bullet manuf. is creating. Again, I trust the science from the AB perspective, but I could also see how others may wonder if there is bias on the opposite side as well. With that being said, keep up the great work with Berger and thank you for the free calculator as you got my business!

Aaron,

The first rule of critical thinking is to consider the source. Hornady pays you money to promote their products because you are in the business of promoting things and do a very good job at it. At the end of the day, you're judged (and paid) by how many viewers you have and how much influence you can demonstrate to your advertising customers. This isn't good or bad, but it's an important thing for a critical thinker to consider when hearing both sides.

We (AB) also have a product to promote. Our product is unbiased information, and at the end of the day, we are judged and paid according to how helpful and accurate our information has been to people. In our business, we can't do 'brand loyalty'. We can't bend facts for advertising. Our business is 'fact loyalty'. Again, it doesn't mean we are good or bad, right or wrong. It's just something a critical thinker will consider when hearing all sides.

-Bryan

 

[AaronSkipDavidson]

For full disclosure, Hornady does buy ad time on our television program "Long Range Pursuit". As I have said many times, my integrity has never been for sale. There is a reason why we only associate with a select few (Hornady and Nightforce). Bryan has also been paid by a bullet company, does that in any way diminish his opinions?

I'm a little shocked at your response to this thread. Don't you think that your rebuttle and/or criticism of Hornady's program will be viewed as self-serving? Should we all accept your "Truth" to be absolute? Hornady's data is derived from actual shooting, just like AB's. The biggest difference is in the equipment used to measure the shooting event. Are you really making the claim that a six figure doppler radar measuring system is inferior to a budget system comprised of acoustic microphones? I'm not certifying Hornady's results. I trust them, but we will use their program and verify the results. I suggest the reader does the same.

AB does great things. We sell Bryan's books, and the Kestrel products. I've worked with Bryan before. He is an excellent advocate for our industry. However, there is no difference between AB/Gunwerks or Bryan and Myself. We are both providing information to the market. We are both monetizing our products. We are both engaged in marketing efforts. Video, Forum Posts, or Shooting Events. It's all technically marketing. Whether or not it's "hype" is an opinion. Some would view hijacking this thread as intensive or excessive publicity of your brand and product -- the textbook definition of hype.

Lets be fair in this forum. Let the users test the product, and ask the questions. Let Hornady present their data. Let them develop their program. There is plenty of room for one more.

 

[BryanLitz]

Scotty,

Thanks for your comments. You're correct that I am the Chief Ballistician for Berger Bullets and like you/we said, any critical thinker should consider things like that. Berger has always valued facts and we are all subject to that standard. If anything we put out is found to be contrary to fact, it's immediately corrected. Nevertheless, readers are always wise to consider the source.


Aaron,

To answer your question, I don't expect anyone to accept what I say as undisputed truth. My objective is to add to the conversation and I invite challenges. If I don't have all the facts or am shown to be mistaken, I fix it and consider it a win because I learned something. Shooters also come here to learn and sometimes I can contribute to that by providing further context to some one-sided advertising.

Take care,
-Bryan