Help with 300RUM 215 Berger and ES

[Vulture]

I am very new to reloading, and have a broad question. When reaching the max end of a load, is it possible for ES to start to go down? Here's an example load:

Remington Brass
Federal 215
93 grains H1000
215grain Berger

I have no pressure signs, shooting out of a 26" factory savage 110, performance is:
3115 avg Fps
20 SD
59 ES

Should I work up to the true max load, or is it likely that ES will increase? I know there are no shortcuts, but I'm somewhat limited on components and time right now, and wonder if it would be more efficient in the short term (until after this fall hunting season) to start working back down to a lower ES?
Secondary question, i am using a cheap hornady gs-1500 digital, has always checked out against my rcbs 505. Would I be better served to do all loads with the 505? Thanks!

 

[J E Custom]

I am very new to reloading, and have a broad question. When reaching the max end of a load, is it possible for ES to start to go down? Here's an example load:

Remington Brass
Federal 215
93 grains H1000
215grain Berger

I have no pressure signs, shooting out of a 26" factory savage 110, performance is:
3115 avg Fps
20 SD
59 ES

Should I work up to the true max load, or is it likely that ES will increase? I know there are no shortcuts, but I'm somewhat limited on components and time right now, and wonder if it would be more efficient in the short term (until after this fall hunting season) to start working back down to a lower ES?
Secondary question, i am using a cheap hornady gs-1500 digital, has always checked out against my rcbs 505. Would I be better served to do all loads with the 505? Thanks!

Basically, Low SDs and ESs have very little to do velocity, Low SDs means you have a good powder, primer and bullet weight combination (You get a very consistent Burn rate in that load). Note;
some times you can improve the SDs by going from a very hot primer to a primer with a little less heat. (Like the CCI 250 or the 9 1/2 magnum Remington)

what you are looking for is single digit SDs if you can achieve them. with lighter bullets it is harder to get there, but with heavy bullets it is not uncommon to get to 4 or 5 ft/sec SDs.

Work on the load it's self by changing Primers, bullet weights and powder brands. (Only change one at a time).

Once you get good SDs then work on accuracy by changing bullet types (Stay with the same weight)
then when you find the best bullet, start changing the seating depth (+ or -)to get the best accuracy

Hope this helps

J E CUSTOM

 

[barefooter56]

I am very new to reloading, and have a broad question. When reaching the max end of a load, is it possible for ES to start to go down? Here's an example load:

Remington Brass
Federal 215
93 grains H1000
215grain Berger

I have no pressure signs, shooting out of a 26" factory savage 110, performance is:
3115 avg Fps
20 SD
59 ES

Should I work up to the true max load, or is it likely that ES will increase? I know there are no shortcuts, but I'm somewhat limited on components and time right now, and wonder if it would be more efficient in the short term (until after this fall hunting season) to start working back down to a lower ES?
Secondary question, i am using a cheap hornady gs-1500 digital, has always checked out against my rcbs 505. Would I be better served to do all loads with the 505? Thanks!

Vulture.
I suggest that with our 215 Hybrid you start at .005 off the lands and work back in in .005 increments. You want to do all your seating depth testing at the lowest powder charge listed for the bullet/powder/cartridge combination you are testing. Once you have found your seating depth accuracy node. Work you load back up in half grain increments until you get to 2 grains below maximum then drop to 1/2 grain increments. All the while you will be checking for pressure signs and accuracy. The rifle will show you these accuracy nodes on the target. When you are doing your velocity testing you can do it through your chronograph to kill two birds with one stone. A low STANDARD DEVIATION (SD) is what you want ( 10 or less). SD is the indicator that affects vertical dispersion. Low SD = less vertical = makes the target bigger. Horizontal = wind , shots out at an angle from the group like at 1, 4 7 and 11 on the clock face is the shooter. In regards to your scales . You need to get a set of the RCBS Check Weights. These are NOT like the weights that came with your Chargemaster unit. Those are calibration weights. The check weights are in grains to represent powder charges in short, if you have a 45 grain load you put the check weights that add up to 45 grains in the scale pan to check the 45 grain setting of the scale is accurate. If the beam scale is set up accuratly using this method you can use it to check the Chargemaster. Keep a good reloading log book and as J E Custom said above "CHANGE ONLY ONE THING AT A TIME AND TEST". If time is short and you already have a load for that rifle that works I would suggest you use it now and do the lod testing when you have time for it so you arent so stressed and rushed for this season.

 

[Vulture]

Thank you for the replies, they are both very helpful. Phil, I find yours especially helpful because it seems that most of what I read, people tend to do the opposite, find an accurate load and then "start playing around with seating depth" as I've read countless times. Your description of the affect of standard deviation makes a lot of sense, and honestly I thought the result of high ES would be vertical dispersion. Attached is a sample group, which I had been attributing this vertical dispersion to either ES or shots stringing from the sporter barrel heating up. This is at 200yds, in the same session I shot a 5 shot group at 300yds that had .75" of horizontal dispersion, and around 2" of vertical. Thinking about it mathematically (and I never thought statistics classes in business school would be relevant), I can see where ES is no nearly as relevant. I could have a really low SD, and one inconsistent load that puts ES into a wide gap, but really wouldn't be relevant to average shot performance. Here's some more info on my load which I used my RCBS balance beam (instead of the hornady digital) and was very meticulous to make sure the powder charges were the same, down to the last particle of powder, it sounds like I'll be starting over in January and determine my jump, and work up from there.

215 Berger Hybrid
Remington Brass (It's taken 3 firings to exceed 2.850" so I now have some to trim)
Federal 215 primers
92.5 grains H1000
.050" jump (I went with this because of anecdotal posts stating it worked well with the 215's)
Avg. COAL 3.865", varies but I used a bullet comparator when setting up my die for the .050" jump
AVG 3130 FPS
SD 22
ES 55

 

[barefooter56]

Thank you for the replies, they are both very helpful. Phil, I find yours especially helpful because it seems that most of what I read, people tend to do the opposite, find an accurate load and then "start playing around with seating depth" as I've read countless times. Your description of the affect of standard deviation makes a lot of sense, and honestly I thought the result of high ES would be vertical dispersion. Attached is a sample group, which I had been attributing this vertical dispersion to either ES or shots stringing from the sporter barrel heating up. This is at 200yds, in the same session I shot a 5 shot group at 300yds that had .75" of horizontal dispersion, and around 2" of vertical. Thinking about it mathematically (and I never thought statistics classes in business school would be relevant), I can see where ES is no nearly as relevant. I could have a really low SD, and one inconsistent load that puts ES into a wide gap, but really wouldn't be relevant to average shot performance. Here's some more info on my load which I used my RCBS balance beam (instead of the hornady digital) and was very meticulous to make sure the powder charges were the same, down to the last particle of powder, it sounds like I'll be starting over in January and determine my jump, and work up from there.

215 Berger Hybrid
Remington Brass (It's taken 3 firings to exceed 2.850" so I now have some to trim)
Federal 215 primers
92.5 grains H1000
.050" jump (I went with this because of anecdotal posts stating it worked well with the 215's)
Avg. COAL 3.865", varies but I used a bullet comparator when setting up my die for the .050" jump
AVG 3130 FPS
SD 22
ES 55

Thanks for the kind words Vulture! is that group the first 3 shots out of a cold, clean barrel?

 

[Vulture]

That group is after 15 rds from a clean bore, several minutes between shots, I would describe the barrel as slightly warm to the touch before each shot, not completely cooled. My experience with this rifle (shooting a few boxes of remington premier 200g Aframe to get brass) is that groups open up considerably with a completely cleaned bore (using sweets or shooter's choice solvents). As a side note, this factory load is fairly accurate, averaging several 3 shot groups together it's around .6" @100 yds. The factory 180g scirocco ammo does not group well in comparison.

 

[barefooter56]

That group is after 15 rds from a clean bore, several minutes between shots, I would describe the barrel as slightly warm to the touch before each shot, not completely cooled. My experience with this rifle (shooting a few boxes of remington premier 200g Aframe to get brass) is that groups open up considerably with a completely cleaned bore (using sweets or shooter's choice solvents). As a side note, this factory load is fairly accurate, averaging several 3 shot groups together it's around .6" @100 yds. The factory 180g scirocco ammo does not group well in comparison.

Vulture,
You are correct! The groups will open up and then the bullet strikes will begin to cluster as the barrel reaches it optimal fouling point. Once this happens you can start you seating depth testing , group testing and chronographing your loads. From the picture you either don't have enough fouling rounds down the tube or your load still need tweaked to get rid of the vertical. Once you've got your load set, since this is a hunting rifle . I suggest you go out to the range and shhot a 3-4 shot group out of a cold clean barrel. Then finish this range session by putting rounds on a practice target until the barrel until the bullet strikes stop rising and begin to cluster. When you get home don NOT clean your rifle! Leave it sit a day or two then take it back out to the range and shoot another 3-4 shot group out of your cold fouled barrel and compare it to the cold clean group. Whichever one is best. That's the way to head out into the field with. If its the cold clean group. See what you have as far as velocity by chronographing so you know what you have and run the information on our BALLISTICS CALCULATOR to check your velocity and foot pounds of force at different ranges. Your baselines here are the SAMMI minimums of 1800 feet per second and 1100 foot pounds of force at the animal.