HELP.....Meplat uniforming tools

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by abinok, Mar 15, 2005.

  1. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Would those who are using meplat uniformers, mind sharing OAL of bullets uniformed on the tool you are using? Im trying to determine if the home made tool ive been working on is "good enough". I know most of you are using bullets over one inch long, so a mic reading to .0001 is probably out, but if you could use the old MK2 eyeball and guess between the .001 lines on your calipers to .0001 it would be much appreaciated. Im on the 4th generation of this tool, and have about $5 invested in this last version.
    Anybody mind sharing length variations?
     
  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,362
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    I just ordered the Tubb version yesterday with overnight shipping so maybe tomorrow I will have some numbers for you.

    It does look like an item that would be easy to "home-make".

    BTW... You are the cause of this meplat trimming stuff for me. I measured some 175 SMKs on the comparator and have got as much at .040 variation between "batches".
     
  3. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

    Messages:
    4,810
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2007
    I found the kevin kram model (montour rifles) is much better. The tooley model has a variation in seating built in due to the plastic body, while the kram model is SS and he has another part of the tool that is a pointed type bit that clean up the holes.

    BH
     
  4. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Dave,
    Sorry about the whole bullet sorting thing... remember when bullets were the stuff you loaded and shot, not the things you had 5 hours invested in before they ever touch a seating stem!
    I figured after I saw a few pictures of the various uniformers, that "I can make that" wasn't too hard you are right, but well see if the results are comprable. If they are I will see about sharing construction instructions with those interested on this site.
    Thanks Dave!
     
  5. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,362
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    No problems, I'm having fun traveling a new path to experience with consistent bullets. I'm going to shoot a F-Class match this weekend and we'll see if anything comes of this bullet sorting stuff.

    I used the Tubb meplat uniformer last evening on a series of test bullets, .308 175 SMKs. I grouped 9 with equal (or nearly equal as best as I could measure) base-to-ogive and trimmed them, eight (8) measured 1.235 and one (1) measured 1.234 post trimming (measured via dial caliper). Tonight I'll trim some loaded rounds, some that are loaded with base-to-ogive sorted bullets and report back.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    abinok, care to share your design on your home made tool? Just got some wildcat bullets and was wondering if any of you using them are trimming them? Am I going to see much inprovment when shooting to 800y?
    Harv
     
  7. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Dave,
    Thanks for sharing. I recently heard that the tool that David sells is actually made by Dave Tooley...
    I had a chance to look at one of the Monitor rifles tools, all stainless steel... very nice, gonna have to get one of those one of these days.
    As for my tool, im getting about .0001 to .00015 variance with sorted bullets, but my tool indexes off the base, instead of the ogive, I guess well see how it does.
     
  8. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,705
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    If this tool of yours measures bearing surface, how can it measure just the bearing surface if it indexes off the base instead of where the boat tail and the ogive meet the shank? WOuldn't you just be measuring base to one end of the bearing surface or have I missed something? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  9. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Harv,
    Im going to try to take some pictures and do a little writeup later on in the day. My camera was acting up last time I tried to use it, so well see...
    My tool is a very simple design, and depending on what you have laying around the house, very cheap to put together.
    As to if you will see any improvement at 800 yds, I believe that you absolutely will. Maybe a brief history lesson....

    This is how the whole thing started -- Larry Bartholomew & Dr. Oehler set up a model 43 at 1,000 yards, and took a bunch of measurements of different chamberings and bullets. The raw data - about 100 pages worth - was never published, but it was circulated among many industry insiders and top 1000yd benchrest shooters. One thing that was quickly noticed is that the variation in BC of bullets from the same box was significant. On the data from the 43, you get extreme spread (ES) and standard deviation (SD) of ballistic coefficient, just like ES and SD for velocity with any chronograph. It was remarkable the number of bullets which had an ES for ballistic coefficient of .020 or greater - both bullets from a green box and bullets from a yellow box. The bullets which had the lowest ES for ballistic coefficient were the Hornady A-max, in a number of calibers. That doesn’t mean the A-max are better bullets overall, just that they, with their plastic tips, had a low ES for BC variation.

    It is very easy to check on whether or not an ES of .020 for ballistic coefficient matters at 1,000 yards. Simply use a ballistics program, and enter all the numbers for a bullet. Let's say the velocity is 3,000 fps and the ballistic coefficient is .540. Run the program, and look at the total drop for the bullet at 1,000 yards-- you'll see a number, something like 240 inches.

    Now change only the ballistic coefficient; instead of .540 use .520, and run the program again. You'll get a different number for total drop, something like 246 inches.

    That means that for a change in BC of .020, you get six inches difference in drop -- practically speaking, you have 6 inches of vertical when everything else is perfect.
    You can also run the comparisons of the variation of wind drift with that same .020 ES. Most match bullets will have about 2.5 inches of wind drift more for the lower bc bullets.
    From this data we can determine that it is mechanically impossible to get production bullets to shoot samller groups than 6"x2.5" groups at 1000yds due to these variations.

    Dave Tooley was one of the people who saw the Bartholomew data, and it lead to the meplat trimming tool as a part of his study on what makes for good bullets. He eventually got a 43, and initial testing showed that trimming the meplat COULD reduce variations in BC. The tool is not a panacea - if you trim too much of the meplat, you can dramatically reduce BC. And not every bullet shows a significant reduction in ES when the meplats are trimmed - there are other factors that lead to variations in drag, but generally good bullets did show a reduction in ES for BC when the meplats were trimmed slightly & uniformly; not quite as good as using plastic tips, but good enough to remove about half that 6-inches of vertical, and half of the 2.5-inches of horizontal. Futhermore tests have shown the uniforming the meplats on match bullets and weighing them virtually eliminates the usual weight variance encountered in non-uniformed bullets.
    Most tool designers and shooters today recomend removing somewhere between .003, and .010 from the meplat, with a small number going as far as .012. Bullets trimed to these dimentions typically loose 2%-3% of their rated BC in trimming, but often show extremly low BC variation. It should be noted that the more material that is removed, the more the BC will be reduced, and perhaps the best option is to remove only enough to produce the same measurement.on a batch of bullets. Many top shooters including G.David Tubb have reported identical retained velocity readings for strings of bullets.

    My groups at 1350yds shrank from 16-21 inches of vertical to between 8.5-11 inches of vertical when sorting bullets by bearing surface length and uniforming meplats on my 220SMKs. My individual groups from the last 3 sessions at 1350 will comfortabely fit on a sheet of paper. I removed (depending on the specific bullet) about .006 from the meplat, and I notticed that the bullets were hitting slightly lower than usual, but im not convinced that it was entirely due to the BC being reduced, we had a high pressure weather condition for those last 3 outings.
     
  10. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Sorry for the confusion GG,
    I sort by BS first, then trim the meplat.
    2 different tools.
    I am of the opinion that if you have batches with the same BS length and base to ogive length, trimming from the base will give a more reliable outcome.
    I went back and sorted the BS sorted bullets from a couple of weeks back, for base to ogive as well. In most cases, the groups only lost a bullet or two. What im trying to say is that in these bullets, most of the base to ogive variation was in the BS length.
    Make any sense?
     
  11. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,705
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Ok. Got it now.
    Yes it makes sense to me. I spent several hours yesterday doing the same thing.
     
  12. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

    Messages:
    877
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    To those interested in whipping up a tool of their own, ill try to get some pics and a description up by sunday. The girlfriend comes into town this weekend along with her better digital camera (I think mine is dead). Won't have time for shooting, but maybe enough to sneak on here and make a post.
     
  13. thocon

    thocon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    76
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    I also have a homemade one,with some new tooling comeing.I'm gonna re-swag to start with,then on to my length. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif