Help me understand.

[Tex_Hunter]

Meant to add... FFP is also perfect for something light and fast like an LPVO mounted on a carbine. My Trijicon Accupower 1-8 has a decent enough reticle to shoot holdovers out to 500yds+ on 8x and when you dial it back to 1x the outer ring of the reticle forms an eotech style donut with a dot in the middle for close in shooting.

SFP optics on an LPVO force you to chose between a good reticle for heads up shooting on 1x thats too fine for shooting at long range, or mediocre BDC thats adequate for longer range but way too cluttered when you dial back to 1x for something close in.

I like to have my cake and eat it too!

Only guns I own that have SFP reticles are when they are a simple duplex reticle paired with something like a CDS or other custom ballistic turret... I've never understood the people who get FFP style reticles (ie. christmas tree/mil dot/tactical etc) on a SFP optic, you are just asking to make mistakes there.

 

[skipglo]

I guess my long range shooting doesn't revolve around hunting......more about target shooting and ELR steel, so I am a little more anal about everything being EXACT. It makes sense, I guess for hunting mid range instead of dialing, but for four digit distance shooting, "close" only counts for horseshoes, bad breath, dancing, and hand grenades

I guess my long range shooting doesn't revolve around hunting......more about target shooting and ELR steel, so I am a little more anal about everything being EXACT. It makes sense, I guess for hunting mid range instead of dialing, but for four digit distance shooting, "close" only counts for horseshoes, bad breath, dancing, and hand grenades!!

Good response...but you kinda left that info out...lol....if you are only interested in shooting the 10 x......laser range finder still the answer....then just use the stadia wires to shoot...or Dial!.....and then yes....you need to know the EXACT distance!

 

[ButterBean]

One of the biggest benefits to using a FFP scope is so you can use the reticle at any magnification for hold over (elevation) and hold off (wind), not just use the reticle for ranging targets.

Exactly

 

[davidu]

I've tried my best to like ffp scopes. Looked through Kahles and NF. The finest scopes made are ffp. Like Tangent Theta and ZCO to name two. And I would really like to own one. But the disadvantages already mentioned are a deal breaker for me. Plus I don't don't compete in PRS.
The SFP NF 7-35 ATACR is the perfect solution for me. I enjoy shooting targets and prairie dogs at 1000+ yards. Seeing misses and dealing with mirage typically mandates using something less than 35 power. The t-moar reticle has subtensions for both 35 AND 17.5 power. I my opinion, it's an ideal solution
Also, I dial for elevation and hold for wind.

 

[jimbires]

Lol wut? MOA/Mil is a fixed unit of measurement. The hashes on an SFP optic are completely irrelevant on any magnification other than the one used to calibrate them so just because you can see "more" of them is meaningless unless you compare apples to apples. If you have two identical scopes with everything else exactly equal except for one FFP and one SFP, the number of hashes visible at top magnification is going to be EXACTLY the same. If your buddy cant see enough of the tree at top magnification then his FOV is too narrow, that has literally nothing to do with SFP vs FFP though.

My Vortex Razor HD AMG has a full 8 mils of elevation holdovers visible at top magnification, thats almost 25 ft of elevation at 1000yds (in addition to 27mils of available internal elevation on the turrets). A nightforce NX8 4-32 F1 (decent entry level ELR optic) has enough FOV and reticle visible at 32x to shoot well past 1 mile between the turrets and holdovers visible on the reticle at top magnification.

Maybe your issue is with cheap FFP optics? Cant help you there.

LOL what ?


on their FFP scopes the lower moa hash marks are not in view when the power is turned up . these are the only FFP scopes I have looked through so maybe this is a problem with these scopes . we were shooting 2375 yards . the elevation turret was maxed out . so they were using the reticle for the additional elevation . the problem was the reticle wouldn't show the lower hash marks for the needed moa without turning down the power .

 

[Bravo 4]

Tex Hunter,
On all the FFP scopes I've used that have a Horus or equivalent grid/Christmas tree type reticles, the lower portion of the reticle gets lost when the power is zoomed in (higher). You in turn lose some moa or mil holdover. This does not happen with all FFP reticles.
Also, a SFP scope's reticle can be used on other powers than where its subtentions are calibrated. As an example; my SFP NXS' reticle is 1 moa at max magnification (22x), but is 2 moa at half that power.

 

[XSIVSPD]

Now help me out here.....If you are a hunter and can afford one of these scopes you can afford a range finder. I mean really, what HUNTER actually uses A FFP scope properly?

Tod

I have ffp moa scopes on all my hunting rifles. I use them in conjuction with my rangefinder to estimate rack size since most of the places I hunt moose have regs that list a minimum spread (ie: spike/fork, or 3 or more brow tines on one side, or 50" or greater spread) simple example is I range it at 300yds and the rack takes up 20moa in the reticle when it's looking at me then I know it's a 60" rack and is legal

 

[Bravo 4]

You can use pretty much anything in a reticle as an aim point that has a distinct marking. When I first started shooting longer ranges, before I joined the military and learned about mildots and such, I used the thicker part of a duplex reticle for aim points at different ranges. At different power settings the distance from center cross to the lower thicker part of the reticle grows and shrinks relative to the target (SFP scopes), and can represent different amounts of drop. I was very proficient out to 600 yards with that old rifle and just a "regular" hunting scope. Then moved on to SFP scopes with moa turrets and mildot reticle. We still have to train with one scope issued as such, another SFP with moa turrets and TMR reticle, then one FFP with mil turrets and Horus reticle. After decades the Army is just now getting around to adopting one system, a FFP mil/mil. My point is, I don't give a crap what you use just know how to use it.

 

[skipglo]

You can use pretty much anything in a reticle as an aim point that has a distinct marking. When I first started shooting longer ranges, before I joined the military and learned about mildots and such, I used the thicker part of a duplex reticle for aim points at different ranges. At different power settings the distance from center cross to the lower thicker part of the reticle grows and shrinks relative to the target (SFP scopes), and can represent different amounts of drop. I was very proficient out to 600 yards with that old rifle and just a "regular" hunting scope. Then moved on to SFP scopes with moa turrets and mildot reticle. We still have to train with one scope issued as such, another SFP with moa turrets and TMR reticle, then one FFP with mil turrets and Horus reticle. After decades the Army is just now getting around to adopting one system, a FFP mil/mil. My point is, I don't give a crap what you use just know how to use it.

Well said! This question comes a 1000 times a year here....along with so many others....but your last line sums up them all.....we can all answer 1000 times too....in the end...it's what works for YOU ...the individual! If it ain't broke.... don't fix it! Or ask how to fix it!

 

[Tex_Hunter]

LOL what ?


on their FFP scopes the lower moa hash marks are not in view when the power is turned up . these are the only FFP scopes I have looked through so maybe this is a problem with these scopes . we were shooting 2375 yards . the elevation turret was maxed out . so they were using the reticle for the additional elevation . the problem was the reticle wouldn't show the lower hash marks for the needed moa without turning down the power

Tex Hunter,
On all the FFP scopes I've used that have a Horus or equivalent grid/Christmas tree type reticles, the lower portion of the reticle gets lost when the power is zoomed in (higher). You in turn lose some moa or mil holdover. This does not happen with all FFP reticles.
Also, a SFP scope's reticle can be used on other powers than where its subtentions are calibrated. As an example; my SFP NXS' reticle is 1 moa at max magnification (22x), but is 2 moa at half that power.

Yes, some of the grid gets lost when you zoom in n an FFP scope, but my point is that if you have two scopes identical in every single way except for one is SFP and one is FFP. The EXACT same amount of the grid would be visible on both. If Vortex made an SFP version of my Razor AMG the SFP reticle would have the same 8 mils of holdovers visible as my FFP version does... its just that simple.

The examples both of you are using are not an issue of FFP vs SFP when comparing apples to apples. A scope with a wider field of view will have more of the reticle grid visible than one with a narrower field of view. Again, this is completely independent of the reticle focal plane either scope has.

You can dial your SFP optic off to half power and then multiply the subtensions by 2x... or with an FFP optic you just have 2x as many lines visible; same end use though.

The big plus of an SFP optic is that you can have a very fine/precise aiming point that doesnt obscure the target at long range/high magnification, and you can get a scope with high quality glass/tracking for less money than an FFP version of comparable quality.

 

[IHFarmer07]

I'm slowly migrating to ffp mil, reason being is that it's simple, it's close to the metric system everything is by 10's and tends to be simple. I love my ffp tree reticles, I might keep a couple SFP scopes on rifles I don't use much and for closer ranges with a regular illuminated plex reticle because for me there's no point to have ranging/hash/tree reticles for hunting in sfp.
Reason being is because if your hunting/shooting and the mirage is terrible you have to turn the power down to mitigate that, then your tree or bdl reticle is pointless unless you remember what they mean at certain powers or dial. For me SFP would be best as a elr scope or wherever you tend to dial to adjust.

 

[jimbires]

Yes, some of the grid gets lost when you zoom in n an FFP scope, but my point is that if you have two scopes identical in every single way except for one is SFP and one is FFP. The EXACT same amount of the grid would be visible on both. If Vortex made an SFP version of my Razor AMG the SFP reticle would have the same 8 mils of holdovers visible as my FFP version does... its just that simple.

The examples both of you are using are not an issue of FFP vs SFP when comparing apples to apples. A scope with a wider field of view will have more of the reticle grid visible than one with a narrower field of view. Again, this is completely independent of the reticle focal plane either scope has.

You can dial your SFP optic off to half power and then multiply the subtensions by 2x... or with an FFP optic you just have 2x as many lines visible; same end use though.

The big plus of an SFP optic is that you can have a very fine/precise aiming point that doesnt obscure the target at long range/high magnification, and you can get a scope with high quality glass/tracking for less money than an FFP version of comparable quality.

wrong . the SFP scope will not loose any of the reticle no matter the power it's set on . I couldn't remember what brand of scope these guys use , it came to me , they use Athlon . I just went to the athlon site and here is a pic of the same reticle at 4 power and at 30 power . I doubt I can find a pic to show you of a SFP scope reticle at min and max power because it doesn't change . the MOA of the hash marks do change according to the power setting . half the magnification is double the MOA .

Ares ETR 4.5-30×56 APLR2 FFP IR MOA | Athlon Optics

 

[DDWing]

LOL what ?


on their FFP scopes the lower moa hash marks are not in view when the power is turned up . these are the only FFP scopes I have looked through so maybe this is a problem with these scopes . we were shooting 2375 yards . the elevation turret was maxed out . so they were using the reticle for the additional elevation . the problem was the reticle wouldn't show the lower hash marks for the needed moa without turning down the power .

If that's the case, you need a moa scope mount.

 

[Bravo 4]

Yes, some of the grid gets lost when you zoom in n an FFP scope, but my point is that if you have two scopes identical in every single way except for one is SFP and one is FFP. The EXACT same amount of the grid would be visible on both. If Vortex made an SFP version of my Razor AMG the SFP reticle would have the same 8 mils of holdovers visible as my FFP version does... its just that simple.

I hear ya, the same amount of grid may be visible just not on max power.
I wish it was as simple as you say. However manufacturers do not always just take a SFP reticle and place it in a FFP. The subtentions may be the same but the reticle genetic make up like width of lines and such will very. Also one reticle may be different in a manufacturer's different scopes, not just different between SFP and FFP but in the different magnification models. Don't take this as me being argumentative, I just look at things differently. When someone says compare apples to apples, I don't look at FFP vs SFP as such as they are different and serve different purposes. If so maybe a Granny Smith compared to a delicious red, just enough likeness to call them both apples. I'm also not advocating one over the other, my ELR rig has a SFP reticle (its moa/moa) and until all my work optics go FFP mil/mil I don't plan on a change. Once the Army pulls their heads out of their 4th point of contact I may change just to have consistency across the board...maybe!