Help me build a 1 mile rifle...

[MontanaRifleman]

Adam,

I just read this thread and my two cents would be to go with a 7AM and get two barrels. By the time you're proficient at 1 mile you might need the second barrel, I probably would A 7 RUM will sure get you to a mile supersonic, but it will be close. I'm not sure the Rem 700 is the best action fot the AM, but it could probably be done. If you go with the RUM, you may as weel get two barrelsl also. The difference between the AM and the RUM is probably about 200-300 fps. One advantage to the RUM is it will be a lot cheaper up front and a little easier on barrels.

Here's a real good thread on the two...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/7mm-allen-mag-vs-7mm-rum-24872/index3.html

Good shooting and hunting,

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Augustus]

Yep, shooting animals at a mile is a very tricky endeavor, one must master respiration,heartbeat, deviation in velocities, updrafts, downdrafts, crosswinds, halfwinds, fishtails, angular deviation, and inclination angle just to mention a few of the problems. Now you need to know how far the animal is from you. How many of you have range finders that will accurately and consistantly range 1 mile on something the size and reflectivity of a deer or elk. Oh, by the way you will have to know within 10 yds or so. Well I reckon most mortals have fell out of the race by now. For the ones still in the hunt, my hat is off to you and you have my utmost respect. Now there is one more thing. How in the hell do you read the animals mind. If he decides to pick up his head and walk about the time you sqeeze off, you will completely miss if you're lucky.

Now to the original question. There really isnt a lot of choices. I personally wouldnt consider anything less than the 338s. The 375 Chey, 408 or 50 BMG would be better providing acceptable bullets were used.

 

[royinidaho]

Adam,

I just read this thread and my two cents would be to go with a 7AM and get two barrels. /QUOTE]

bigngreen alluded to the barrel life also.

From what I am experiencing with my 270 AM w/a Lilja 3 groove barrel, life expectancy on a single barrel may well be sufficient in the 7mm AM with the 200 gr Wildcats. Additionally, the number of shots to get up and running to 1500 will be less than I have shot with my "searching for an alternate bullet" process.

Most shots and will be taken working the drop chart out to the Mile Mark. It will be way more time consuming than bullet consuming.

Also, if you wish to start in 2010 you may wish to get on the smith's schedule pretty quick.

 

[Pdvdh]

There really isnt a lot of choices. I personally wouldnt consider anything less than the 338s. The 375 Chey, 408 or 50 BMG would be better providing acceptable bullets were used.

To shoot rocks/steel at one mile, buy a 7mm RUM if you're set on a 7mm caliber cartridge.

To shoot deer at one mile, get a 338 Allen Magnum, or 375 Allen Magnum or some other equivalent (or larger) case capacity cartridge as ID'd above.

To harvest large game, it has to be a real shooter. I'd say consistently less than 0.5 MOA even out to the farthest ranges you plan to shoot deer. Otherwise you'll be shooting patterns rather than groups. This pretty much means you need to plan on a rifle assembled by a quality gunsmith that's doing everything correctly to increase the odds of great accuracy.

As MR stated, the 7mms will burn the throats and barrels out about the time you find a good load and feel like you're beginning to really have some fun. Which isn't the end of the world, as long as you're not surprised when accuracy and consistency fall off and it's time for a new replacement barrel.

Once you've got your rifle, you begin school and there's a lot of other gear, equipment, gadgets, skill, knowledge, and money (ouch!) that will be required for hunting at extreme ranges. But you can have a lot of fun blasting rocks in the mean time... gun) gun)

 

[Shawn Carlock]

After reading Adams 2nd post (#6), he wanted a mile capable rock and gong rifle with deer capability to 1000 yards. He had a pile of 7mm Wildcats and Berger 180 in 7mm and a Rem long action, thus the recommendation for a 7 RUM and perfectly capable for the task at hand.

Since the thread has headed this way, of course I'd recommend a 338 for long range big game work. I like to error to the side of horsepower but do not under estimate the smaller calibers with in reason. I feel sometimes people put to much value on energy and bullet expansion. Those can be valuable assetts but day in and day out, bullet placement and penetration will be the issues to getting the job done. Expansion (provided there is enough penetration ) is a great thing and more energy is always better but be sure to focus on what really counts.

 

[Buffalobob]

A 7AM with a 200 gr Wildcat will stay supersonic to 2K at sea level depending on exactly the weather conditions. At 5000 ft altitude you can get to about 2500 yards. It will have enough killing power for an east coast whitetail or a small forkhorn mule deer or a doe. As has been said if a person goes that route then you have to have the second barrel chambered and handy to screw in when the first burns up. You have to have a large supply of bullets of the same batch. I bought five hundred wildcat bullets with my rifle and they sort into two groups by weight that is 0.2 grains apart. They were extraordinarily consistent but just a hair difference in final weight. Reject rate was 1%. This is the same reject rate for Sierra MK. All the Wildcats had been pointed so the tips were in better shape than the 308 SMKs I shoot in F-class

To give Brian Litz credit, G1 is a terrible math approximation at these distances. You will pull your hair out trying to get Exbal to work and fit to your data. You can go two routes with Exbal. One route is to say you really don't care about prediction accuracy under 1200 yards and just worry about the long range stuff. The other is to fiddle with the multiple BCs adjusting them and the velocity groupings until you get things as close as you can. I have about a 10% change in BC over 2K of distance.

One other thing Brian said that is true (at least for me) the center of your group that you shoot for drop data to calibrate your BC at 1500 yards on out to 2K is influenced severely by how good of a shot you are and how well you can dope out mirage and updrafts. This part will drive you crazy.

I shoot a 7AM but I never argue the killing efficiency of it versus the 338s at long range. While as Bud Martin showed with his non expanded 6.5 SMK it is not necessary to have bullet expansion to cleanly kill a deer at long range it is advantageous to have as big of a hole as you can get and that makes the larger diameter calibers more effective up front. With a better BC from some of the larger calibers you then have some additional advantages.

I briefly pondered buying some of the Henson 7mm bullets to see if I could get more speed and BC at the same time but was too worried that the testing would burn up my barrel and I do not have a spare laying around. Certainly, if a person was just beginning the process he would be wise to buy a box of those bullets and launch a few to see what the long range drops are like.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

BB, if my memory serves me well, I seem to recall you saying on a couple of occcasions that you do not use a chrony. If that's correct, how do you determine and confirm velocity, BC, trajectory, etc?

On the 6.5 bullet that killed the deer in Bud's thread, we should probably remember that bullet went through the heart. About close to the same time I read in another thread where a member had a bullet that failed to expand on a deer twice (on the same deer) and it ran off and died and was recovered some days later with pencil holes through it. Not at all trying to start a tiff, just trying to get it all in perspective.

Shawn, it's interesting reading your perspective on bullet expansion or lack of it. I'm guessing there was no bullet expansion on the 1900 yd deer, but I didn't want to bring it up and start a controversy in your thread. Could you describe the bullet performance, reaction of the deer, autopsy, etc.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Pdvdh]

On the 6.5 bullet that killed the deer in Bud's thread, we should probably remember that bullet went through the heart. About close to the same time I read in another thread where a member had a bullet that failed to expand on a deer twice (on the same deer) and it ran off and died and was recovered some days later with pencil holes through it. ... just trying to get it all in perspective.

Shawn, it's interesting reading your perspective on bullet expansion or lack of it.
Mark

Are there folks who feel full metal jacketed bullets are suitable for large game from 1000 yds on out? My experiences with a couple expanding bullets that never expanded at closer ranges would keep me from attempting shots unless I felt the bullet had a chance to expand. One was a little black bear with a 338 Win Mag at about 275 yds. He was hit good enough that an expanding bullet would have dropped him. Instead it required a burst of followup shots while he was on the run - in the effort to keep him from reaching the brush and timber. So in this experience, not even a 338 caliber non-expanded bullet did the job.

Another Dall sheep at 13 yds with a 280 RCBS Imp. lived pretty comfortable for 15 minutes after being double-lunged, and then lived pretty miserably for 15 minutes before being finished off.

Trying draw out a little more detail on what's being discussed here. Are you of the position that a little bullet expansion is good enough?

I don't think I'm hearing that no expansion is good enough at long range... or am I?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Paul, In order not to hijack this thread, I started another one in the LR Hunting forum.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[bigngreen]

Paul, In order not to hijack this thread, I started another one in the LR Hunting forum.

Cheers,

Mark

Good call !!!!!

 

[Buffalobob]

Mark

I have explained how I get thorough life without a chronograph quite a few times on this forum for people who actually have a need to know. It is well documented.

As far as my opinion of bullet expansion at long range I will start this way. Back in the days before there were instant internet experts, everything had to be learned the hard way. This method was very hard on the animals and that's a fact. What I learned was that if you get too much expansion you will not get adequate penetration (this story has been related several times on this forum also and does not bear repeating right now either). When you are out at the limits of your rifle and bullet combination, if you have to choose then, you should choose penetration over expansion. You have to get into the vital organs. If you can get both penetration and expansion then that is great. There are reasons most states prohibit hunting with non-expanding bullet (except for muzzle loaders) and these are good reasons and certainly I am not advocating that those laws be changed. One should consider that being as my background also consists of having used a lot of FMJs in my early days that I am relatively familiar with their characteristics and am not worried about expanding bullets that don't expand. What I have advised is that if you are going to shoot at the margins of a rifle bullet combination it is good to get a big hole in the animal.

If it was legal and if there was a FMJ out there that had a higher BC and would get me better accuracy downrange I would have no hesitancy in using it.

 

[Pdvdh]

Mark
If it was legal and if there was a FMJ out there that had a higher BC and would get me better accuracy downrange I would have no hesitancy in using it.

I'm already decided on this matter for myself, but are there others that feel OK about shooting game animals at distances where the bullet has dropped substantially below manufacturer's advertised expansion velocity, such that the bullet may not expand? This is a new one to me... the aftermath of my two first-hand experiences were far less than ideal... and they occured at much higher impact velocities than would be experienced at extended ranges.

Seems pertinent to deciding on a suitable cartridge to chamber in a 1-mile rifle... no?

 

[Buffalobob]

For the reading impaired. One more time real slowly. This is what I advised him about killing a deer at a mile:

If I was gong to start all over I would first decide between two different routes.

One route would be to build only one rifle and the second would be to build two rifles.

The one rifle route would be a 20 pound moderate 338 such as the edge. This would provide a decent barrel life so I could practice with it frequently. It would not have the best ballistic capabilities so there would be extra skill needed to achieve the end results.

Second path would be to build a 338-408 and a 308. Use the 308 to gain the skill to deal with the far end of the trajectory when sensitivity to wind and range finding is most critical. Use the larger rifle only to test out its trajectory and get a drop chart set up. Setting up a drop chart out to 2K is no trivial matter.

I personally am not planning on starting all over. I have a 7mm that easily reaches a mile.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mark

I have explained how I get thorough life without a chronograph quite a few times on this forum for people who actually have a need to know. It is well documented.

I hope there's no misunderstnding, I dont doubt your method as it seems to work well for you and I am very interested in learning about it.... especially as I loose more confidence im chronys. I've tried the search function using various combinations of chronograph, chrony, buffalobob and load development with no luck, or in some cases overwhelming numbers of threads to wade through. Do you have a suggested search word or phrase or bettter yet, direct link?

As far as my opinion of bullet expansion at long range I will start this way. Back in the days before there were instant internet experts, everything had to be learned the hard way. This method was very hard on the animals and that's a fact. What I learned was that if you get too much expansion you will not get adequate penetration (this story has been related several times on this forum also and does not bear repeating right now either). When you are out at the limits of your rifle and bullet combination, if you have to choose then, you should choose penetration over expansion. You have to get into the vital organs. If you can get both penetration and expansion then that is great. There are reasons most states prohibit hunting with non-expanding bullet (except for muzzle loaders) and these are good reasons and certainly I am not advocating that those laws be changed. One should consider that being as my background also consists of having used a lot of FMJs in my early days that I am relatively familiar with their characteristics and am not worried about expanding bullets that don't expand. What I have advised is that if you are going to shoot at the margins of a rifle bullet combination it is good to get a big hole in the animal.

If it was legal and if there was a FMJ out there that had a higher BC and would get me better accuracy downrange I would have no hesitancy in using it.

Good post, I dont completely agree but I think it would make a great contribution to this thread if you cared to paste it in

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/bullet-expansion-necessary-effecive-killing-game-51245/