Help diagnosing these groups/my fundamentals

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Vandy321, Sep 17, 2019.


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  1. Vandy321

    Vandy321 Well-Known Member

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    This is cross posted on another forum as well... it no bites yet.

    2 pics below, 2 x 3 shot groups at each target. 6 total at 500 and and 6 total at 700 yards. Rifle is a 300wm shooting 215 hybrids at 2988.

    It's a good load, ES of 9 and SD of 3.5, so I'm not thinking that's the problem. Steady full value 10mph wind today, but it was steady as it gets.

    2 distinct POIs (mixed between the 2 groups shot at each). Results are pretty uniform over 4 dif groups at 2 different ranges. Is this a shooting fundamentals issue? The groups on each POI match about what my rifle has been shooting (.6 MOAor less, problem is, those POIs are mixed between 2 groups.

    I dont think they were flyers, it's too distinct over 2 targets to be that. My guess is (and I can feel it sometimes) my POI is impacted by how much I load (or dont load) the bipod. Didnt take notes on which ones went high. But based on the POI of low/right and the others more on target with elevation, but left....is this just a fundenentals issue?

    Sometimes I feel like the rifle recoils a little more on me if I'm light on my bipod load.

    At that range would a more free recoil, cause a big enough dip in velocity to impact low like that? If I remember correctly the upper impacts had more of a load on the rifle.

    Any thoughts? Bad shooting, or is there a pattern here to learn from?

    My 3 shot zero to start the day at 100 was sub .5 (about as good as I can shoot this rifle) 20190917_094939.jpg 20190917_095322.jpg
     
  2. BEEMAN

    BEEMAN Well-Known Member

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    I am having problems with my new 6 Dasher shooting two groups as well. 3 in one hole then two fliers. I think my problem is bedding. I would check that if it’s not bedded. Also what kind of bipod? I had a earlier Atlas and had a terrible time shooting off it. Switched to a Harris and problem solved. Could be a number of things and I wish you the best. It can be very frustrating trying to solve these problems. Remember to only change one thing at a time until you find the issue.
     
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  3. Vol1975

    Vol1975 Well-Known Member

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    How is you run out on bullets and are the cases fire formed and or FL resized bumping back .002 or such.

    And when u are shooting are the conditions the same.

    Also twist rate vs bullet. How is you stabilization1:10 or 9. And the elevation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
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  4. Vandy321

    Vandy321 Well-Known Member

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    Rifle is bedded, action screws checked, scope and base was torqued/checked as well.

    1:9 twist, 7k elevation. Dont have a run out gauge but these are neck turned and all necks measure consistent, tension is set with bushing die and then expanded out. Seating tension feels identical. Today's brass was once fired, not resized or bumped. Just swapped primers and cut the ES in half to 9. Really pretty confident it's not the load.

    Anything in fundamentals point to this? All shots felt pretty good, except as noted some had a little more or less shoulder into them to control recoil. Of note, during load dev...if I did have POI shifts it was typically high/left like this...if I'm not controlling the rifle as well as consistently is that a reasonable explanation?

    I'd say its flyers, but the 2 distinct groups have me convinced theres something to this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  5. Vol1975

    Vol1975 Well-Known Member

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    Probably right on flyers. I know in the past I’ve had run out on some bullets that were .005-.007 thousand where most people would like to stay below two. Just trying to eliminated potential. Good luck
     
  6. L.Sherm

    L.Sherm Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    First I would shoot in no wind, the wind can do some bad things when your trying to shoot groups. Have somebody else shoot the gun and see the results.
    If you still get the same results I would try a different primer.
    You cant randomly say it's a good load just because it has low ES and SD untill you figure out what's going on, your obviously not happy with the results.
     
  7. Vandy321

    Vandy321 Well-Known Member

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    It groups at

    This was the same load I just changed primers with, based on your suggestion. Dropped ES in half. It shot sub .5 at 100 yards today and .25 moa at 300 yards, same load, same conditions.

    Not positive it's not the load, but I'm guessing its shooter induced error. Just looking for some suggestions on things that it may be.

    Shooting again next week. Hoping for a calmer morning weather wise...concerned about the vertical, not so much the left/right of these two targets.
     
  8. L.Sherm

    L.Sherm Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    If its shooting .25 m.o.a at 300 then I'm inclined to say its wind or form.
    Take a buddy with you who you trust and let him shoot it.
     
  9. Vandy321

    Vandy321 Well-Known Member

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    Will see if the fella I shoot with wants to give it a whirl next time out, good idea.

    .25 at 300...the 500 yard group pictured is .55 moa...pretty happy with it, but 700 fell apart with 2 of 6 fliers...will work on being more consistent, was just wondering if these showed a glaring error in fundenentals, breathing, trigger control, follow through, etc.
     
  10. MTBMaine

    MTBMaine Well-Known Member

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    A gunsmith once told me that bi modal grouping is a bedding issue. Interesting theory I guess.
     
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  11. huntsman22

    huntsman22 Well-Known Member

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    Next time we'll try it down in the dirt, instead of using spike-footed bipods on the shooting deck.....
     
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  12. sw282

    sw282 Well-Known Member

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    lf you are shooting off a bench it looks like inconsistent rear bag pressure
     
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  13. Bravo 4

    Bravo 4 Well-Known Member

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    Just speaking fundamentals and not a rifle or scope issue. If I observe one of my students struggling I will watch them going through the shot process. Check their parallax which can wreak havoc on their grouping at longer ranges when they keep popping their head off the stock more often than not after each shot and not keeping a consistent cheek weld. I also see a lot of limp rear bags. I like one pretty firm when in shooting position to keep the butt from dipping down when recoiling. I want recoil to come straight back, more consistent that way. Makes spotting my own hits (part of my follow through) easier as well. I like to drive my rifles fairly hard and load the bipod, some rifles like to be driven harder (hold and bipod load). I also see guys loading the bipod first and then getting on target, this to me adds stress to the position. I will stand straight behind them and watch the muzzle during recoil, if it is torquing one way or another and not coming straight back I know something is off (this may be a rear support/bag issue as well). To get their NPA on track I will shoot them blind. You’ll know if you are doing things right when you are shooting little groups onto intended POA and you cannot see your target.
     
  14. sw282

    sw282 Well-Known Member

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    Well stated Bravo... Also, To confirm if its the gun/ammo or the shooter simply let someone else shoot your gun. Preferably a good Marksman
     
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