Heavy Bolt Lift

ishootkittens said:
I agree. He makes it look easy. But I've already SENT it to bat 5 years ago. They said it performed great. I don't even know.
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We can all probably go round and round with this. I understand your frustrations. IMO you should call Alex Wheeler and ship your rifle to him for inspection. He is one of the most experienced gunsmiths especially when it comes to BAT Machine actions.
 
ishootkittens said:

I wonder if I could cut a coil off of that spring??

I know, I know, its a bad idea and would void any warranty/future assistance. I just know it has to be the spring tension...
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You maybe right. I am sure BAT will sell you a new one.

Given their rep, and that they have checked it, its unlikely their parts. Pretty sure they didn't make the spring though...

Try the procedures for adjusting as suggested first I guess. It appears that they have put out quite a bit of info on bolt, triggers and firing pin.

I keep thinking about the bolt camming over by itself to complete the bolt close. That is just odd, and a clue.
 
ishootkittens said:
Yup! My bolt is the bolt at 1:26. It pops out just fine, but getting that thing back is VERY difficult. I have alot of spring pressure!
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It would help us to help you if you could tell us what model of BAT action that you have. As is, we all seem to be stabbing around in the dark.

As far as I can tell, the BAT firing pin assembly doesn't screw into the back of the bolt like a Remington. Instead it uses an insert and turn approach. If so, you can just forget all that stuff about backing the firing pin out one full turn. It does not apply.

That said, there does appear to be a nice adjustment procedure that would accomplish the same thing only better. The BAT appears to have an infinitely variable length. That's what all the fuss in their video is all about with locking set screws and caliper measurements. However, they don't have a standard so I'd have no idea where to start except trial and error.

Beyond that, I really doubt you can fix your problem this way. A few turns one way or the other won't appreciably change the pin force.

The same goes for cutting off a turn or two on the spring. It won't change a lot. And I certainly don't recommend cutting springs in any event. Springs are usually rated in terms of force per unit length change. At 4 or 5 inches long (just a wild guess) a tenth of an inch one way or the other is only a few percent change in force. Not what you are looking for.

By all means, please do send us some photos and tell us the model of the action.

If you lived in my area, I'd suggest you drop by and look at it together with me. But that isn't practical. So I'll just keep trying to help as best I can.
 
Maol said:
I keep thinking about the bolt camming over by itself to complete the bolt close. That is just odd, and a clue.
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It's not odd at all. Almost all bolts on most rifle makes will do that if the trigger is held in the pulled position while the bolt is closing and/or if the trigger is removed. It's perfectly normal. It's just the opposite of what happens when you open the bolt which cocks the firing pin via a cocking ramp. The unrestrained firing pin closes the bolt via the cocking ramp.
 
Susquatch said:
It's not odd at all. Almost all bolts on most rifle makes will do that if the trigger is held in the pulled position while the bolt is closing and/or if the trigger is removed. It's perfectly normal. It's just the opposite of what happens when you open the bolt which cocks the firing pin via a cocking ramp. The unrestrained firing pin closes the bolt via the cocking ramp.
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Got you, you are correct that is exactly how the work.

Just went and checked the Savage to make sure I was remembering this correctly...

Even though it is a Savage (notorious heavy bolts) it doesn't snap closed all the way. With trigger pulled, when I push the bolt handle lightly downward from directly from above to start it, it slowly pulls itself down towards the closed position. However it stops just barely short of fully closed.

Admittedly, I have done several things to lessen the heaviness of the 6.5 C bolt, and I don't have the 6.5 PRC bolt with me to check that one. That bolt has had nothing done to it yet except assembly and basic function test, (bc I haven't tried the PRC barrel out yet) so that one is still in it's quite heavy 'natural' Savage state.

In the OP's first post he said he owned Savages and other rifles, so he should know what a 'naturally' heavy bolt lift was like. Also he said he suspected the firing pin assembly was the issue, but was afraid to mess with it because he didn't want to induce ignition problems.

Then in the OP's 2nd Post he said:

'I did notice something after putting the firing pin assembly back into the bolt and working the bolt a few time. When I start to push the bolt down into the locking position (firing position), you can feel the spring literally pull the bolt down almost jerking it out of my hands. If that makes since. For example if my bolt was a 90 degree throw, at about 75-80 degrees the bolt starts to pull itself downwards and I can let go and it will slam itself into place.' - (Emphasis is mine)

I don't know that I have ever had a bolt try to jerk out of my hand to slam itself into place. Again he has other rifles so should have a good reference point for what to expect. His unusual description is what caught my attention and seemed odd to me. I guess as most have said, without it front of you...

I have a spare 'Heavy' firing pin that is the original. I keep it in the 'lift kitted' original bolt the rifle came with. It is always in my pack. The lift kitted bolt I use regularly I put together myself, and it has a lighter spring and a titanium firing pin. I am sure it is not the fastest firing pin in the world anymore, but it still goes bang every time and operating the bolt doesn't pull the rifle completely off of the target anymore.
 
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Maol said:
Got you, you are correct that is exactly how the work.

Just went and checked the Savage to make I was remembering this correctly...

Even though it is a Savage (notorious heavy bolts) it doesn't snap closed all the way. With trigger pulled, when I push the bolt handle lightly downward from directly from above to start it, it slowly pulls itself down towards the closed position. However it stops just barely short of fully closed.

Admittedly, I have done several things to lessen the heaviness of the 6.5 C bolt, and I don't have the 6.5 PRC bolt with me to check that one. That bolt has had nothing done to it yet except assembly and basic function test, (bc I haven't tried the PRC barrel out yet) so that one is still in it's quite heavy 'natural' Savage state.

In the OP's first post he said he owned Savages and other rifles, so he should know what a 'naturally' heavy bolt lift was like. Also he said he suspected the firing pin assembly was the issue, but was afraid to mess with it because he didn't want to induce ignition problems.

Then in the OP's 2nd Post he said:

'I did notice something after putting the firing pin assembly back into the bolt and working the bolt a few time. When I start to push the bolt down into the locking position (firing position), you can feel the spring literally pull the bolt down almost jerking it out of my hands. If that makes since. For example if my bolt was a 90 degree throw, at about 75-80 degrees the bolt starts to pull itself downwards and I can let go and it will slam itself into place.' - (Emphasis is mine)

I don't know that I have ever had a bolt try to jerk out of my hand to slam itself into place. Again he has other rifles so should have a good reference point for what to expect. His unusual description is what caught my attention and seemed odd to me. I guess as most have said, without it front of you...

I have a spare 'Heavy' firing pin that is the original. I keep it in the 'lift kitted' original bolt the rifle came with. It is always in my pack. The lift kitted bolt I use regularly I put together myself, and it has a lighter spring and a titanium firing pin. I am sure it is not the fastest firing pin in the world anymore, but it still goes bang every time and operating the bolt doesn't pull the rifle completely off of the target anymore.
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Good points. I agree.

I think words (and emphasis like yours) are all subjective. But there does come a point where we would all agree that something or another is TOO MUCH. His situation may well be one of those. Hence my desire to help him find out what is wrong as well as throwing out the possibility that he MIGHT BE too sensitive.

Anyway, I checked my own rifles. Most are customs with various levels of force required. Some very light lift, some heavy. Some "snap" down, some "slide" down. None are what I would call excessive. But I am a BIG guy.

FWIW, most of my own 700s have PTG Bolts and Tubb dual spring firing pins. I LOVE how fast, smooth, and bounce free the Tubb pins are and I recommend them to all my clients.

I'm still waiting for the OP to post pictures and tell us what model this is. Hopefully it all comes together when the dust settles.
 
Susquatch said:
Good points. I agree.

I think words (and emphasis like yours) are all subjective. But there does come a point where we would all agree that something or another is TOO MUCH. His situation may well be one of those. Hence my desire to help him find out what is wrong as well as throwing out the possibility that he MIGHT BE too sensitive.

Anyway, I checked my own rifles. Most are customs with various levels of force required. Some very light lift, some heavy. Some "snap" down, some "slide" down. None are what I would call excessive. But I am a BIG guy.

FWIW, most of my own 700s have PTG Bolts and Tubb dual spring firing pins. I LOVE how fast, smooth, and bounce free the Tubb pins are and I recommend them to all my clients.

I'm still waiting for the OP to post pictures and tell us what model this is. Hopefully it all comes together when the dust settles.
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I agree everything is subjective in sending/receiving communication lol, and every form has it's draw backs... If it wasn't for TV Kennedy might not have been elected. Many think if their debate would have been on the radio Nixon would have won the election.

Tone is difficult to perceive in the written word and visual 'tells' aren't available. For instance, we often miss the tongue-in-cheek grin and take offence when none was meant. FYI I added the emphasis because that was how I received it, those were the 'important' words that 'I' noted. Also as you said how he perceives the bolt operation is subjective too, and to troubleshoot it you need some empiricism.

BTW my 'new' 6.5 C and PRC bolt bodies and heads are PTG too. I for one appreciate the 'hot' pro tip re the Tubb dual spring firing pins. I will look into them for the PRC bolt. - Thanks, Tom

Edit: lol should have known better. If you enter the word Savage in the Tubb site search bar you will get '0 results'. I have heard of Tubbs of course, but not his springs. Now I know why. I don't own any Remington rifles. Never say never, but I don't expect too either. I have decided to not buy firearms that I can't maintain myself including barrel swaps. Seriously planning on a custom 'Remage' or (2) in the future though.
 
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If it checks out then all you need to do is put a similar weight spring in it thats others run and it will open like a dream. Bat has excellent ignition design (and execution). They open really nice with a stock spring which is why I do think you have an issue. But they handle a 21lb spring with no issues, but we do like to error on the heavy side for sub zero weather.
 
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How do I order a spring. Sadly it will probably be cheaper to change the spring before sending that 15# hunk of metal across the country. And I live in VA. We see temps into the teens MAYBE haha so I have no problems trying a lighter spring.
 

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