Hard to believe part 2 the answer

Pmacc60

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As many know I had posted about some incredible shooting that I read about on a different forum. With some motivation from members I question the poster about his developed technique . The questions I ask were , why are you using 40 and 50 gr vmax bullets when the trend is for longer heavier bullets with better coefficients ? What scope are you using and how are you setting it up . How are you zeroing your rifle reminding him his set up in a 30 mph crosswind at 850 yards had 34’ of drift and 23’ of drop. 1 mph variation of wind could change drift 15 “ at that range. Here is the response .I will paraphrase.

Pmacc you are exactly right using small varmint bullets for long range that’s not the normal way to go. This was a research experiment just to see what the effect of sonic transition had on these smaller bullets.The scope was Vortex EBR1 reticle with 30 mos adjustment mounted on 20 moa rail . He said he needed all of it .He said I was right about the wind being a big factor , 1 mph or 5 degrees it could become difficult to predict hits. Next the strategy !

This shooter stated that from the muzzle to impact (850 yards 40 or 50 gr 223 cal ) it took aprox 2.5 seconds for the to impact.using a AR -15 24 inch barrel . Using the semi auto advantage he would fire a shot waiting to see impact and in 1 second, fire a second shot then third if need making slight adjustments on each shot as needed. Forth shot was rarely needed .The wind held steady at thirty mph for about 10 seconds .

His observations , impact predictability was much better than ever expected ! Once range and wind were dialed in hold overs were very consistent .
2 There were no ricochets , no scaring of the p-dog population. Bullets burying in the dirt.
3 The low subsonic <800 FPS bullets hitting rarely noticed by the p-dogs most Lilly because of no supersonic crack .
4 P-dogs did not blow up on impact they fell to the side because of big angle entry due to the wind!
Closing his thoughts were longer heavier bullets may lead to ricochets that could be up to a mile with VLD bullets
His most deadly cartridge is 6 mm Creedmoor using it to 1400 yards .

I had to paraphrase but I tried to give this shooter accurate representation . If you are coming in on this post only go to the post Har to believe .
 

rammac

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He's even more full of crap.

Redo your ballistic estimate using his subsonic velocity, under 800 FPS at 850 yards? Just with rough data (approx 2000 FPS at the muzzle, 50gr Vmax, .223 caliber, 30 MPH wind, 850 yards) and you'll see that wind adjustment will be somewhere around 48 feet (64 MOA), it'll be pretty hard to convince me that he found a scope that allowed for that much windage. 60 MOA total adjustment (plus or minus 30 MOA) is about the best you'll buy and that would require that he zeroed his rifle at one side of the scope and offset his point of aim to the very edge of the other side of the scope. You aren't going to be hitting pdogs with that kind of setup.

And then try spotting your own impact, making scope adjustments, and then recovering your shooting position in under a second while shooting at pdogs at 850 yards, it isn't possible.
 

phorwath

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Don't believe he was consistently hitting them even given 4 shots on each dog. They're simply too small at that yardage to be consistently lucky. I'd be placing bets against, even at 5 to 1 odds.

I don't think 4 shot consistency with NO wind is feasible. Maybe 14-shot consistency. Would be better off to sling-shot cluster bombs. Have better odds.

Better bring a 2nd .223 change-out barrel, and a wagon full of ammo.
 

orkan

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The intrinsic harm in the internet being flooded with enthusiastic claims of infinite prowess is only equaled by the intrinsic harm done by those admonishing the people perpetuating those claims.

It exposes the unlikely truth of those claims by those with little experience, and simultaneously invalidates any accounts of truly astounding accomplishments from those that are massively experienced.

Thus continues the cycle of untruthful accounts of the inexperienced and the continued silence and refusal to participate for fear of unjust persecution of the experienced, perpetrated by the inexperienced.
 

ButterBean

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I also just heard Colin Kaepernick jut signed with Green Bay....................................He's full of it


giphy.gif
 

Hecouldgoalltheway

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Now, when I was in the army, we would shoot Prarie dogs a few times a month, on post, on a range, with ammo paid for by the taxpayers. We would launch those 168gr match .308 bullets from an elevated platform and sometimes we would shoot all day long, and be paid for it. I only mention this to say that the part about their lack of reaction at that range sounds like what I experienced. We would miss a whole lot, since we were in Colorado and had crazy switching winds all the time, and I've seen a pd get splashed with dirt multiple times and watch 3 of his buddies turned inside out within a few feet of him.and there he would stand, spattered in his buddy's blood wiping dirt from his eyes, standing straight up trying to figure out what was happening as bullets splashed around him. We would get into it sometimes and wouldn't even bother reading those fickle winds, just launch one out there and adjust. I'm not saying that this man is being honest, but the part I'm referring to is in line with what I've seen. We had a 1,000y range over a prairie dog town, and at that say....... 500y and beyond, they didn't really have much reaction to a missed shot..
 

ButterBean

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Now, when I was in the army, we would shoot Prarie dogs a few times a month, on post, on a range, with ammo paid for by the taxpayers. We would launch those 168gr match .308 bullets from an elevated platform and sometimes we would shoot all day long, and be paid for it. I only mention this to say that the part about their lack of reaction at that range sounds like what I experienced. We would miss a whole lot, since we were in Colorado and had crazy switching winds all the time, and I've seen a pd get splashed with dirt multiple times and watch 3 of his buddies turned inside out within a few feet of him.and there he would stand, spattered in his buddy's blood wiping dirt from his eyes, standing straight up trying to figure out what was happening as bullets splashed around him. We would get into it sometimes and wouldn't even bother reading those fickle winds, just launch one out there and adjust. I'm not saying that this man is being honest, but the part I'm referring to is in line with what I've seen. We had a 1,000y range over a prairie dog town, and at that say....... 500y and beyond, they didn't really have much reaction to a missed shot..
Nobody is doubting the PD's reaction's, How many did you hit [email protected] 800 yards with the 308 in 30 mph winds?
 

Hecouldgoalltheway

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Now we'd kill ungodly numbers in a day, but the yardage was of course all over the place. If we killed 1 out of 10 at 800y with a single bullet I'd be surprised. Of course the other part if that is that you don't always know. At those extended ranges it's pretty hard to know if you just cut one in half and dropped both halves into his hole, or if he just ducked back into it when the bullet splashed in front of him.
 

Hecouldgoalltheway

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That's what we are getting at,
No, I get it, the claims are ridiculous, but I wanted to point to the only part of it that actually sounded valid. This guy sounds like he has definitely shot over Prarie dogs before. I'd like to see him hit an e-type silhouette with 50% accuracy at 800y with a .223 in those winds. If he could do that, I'd pay to attend his shooting school and keep my mouth shut while he shared his magical powers
 

orkan

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I don't know the fella you're referring to OP (@Pmacc60), so I dare not speculate what category of shooter he is. However, I can share my own experiences which might help frame your approach. When I lay down in my pdog towns here on a nice calm day with my 6mm Dasher or 6BR or 6BRA, etc... adult prairie dogs fully exposed atop their mounds at 800yds will have a very difficult time remaining alive once I've launched a couple rounds to that general location on the dog town. It can take a few misses to get dialed into the condition some days if it's really sporty. Those big chunky ones are 5-6" worth of hit zone. More, if they are laid out horizontal a bit rather than standing tall. By mid day, I've usually fired enough rounds to enough sectors of the town to really be locked in and it becomes ruthlessly deadly for them inside of 800yds. On days like that, 500yds and inward becomes quite boring. However, if the conditions start taking a turn for the worse, that capability gets ratcheted in close VERY quickly and exponentially if we're talking about trying to keep at least a 90% hit ratio. When the wind starts bucking 20mph+... I need to ratchet my distance expectation back to about 300yds, and even closer the smaller of a cartridge I'm running. Ten mph or less and if its nice and steady, I can still do some good work out there at the further reaches of the average sized towns. In a 30mph wind... I just don't find myself connecting past 400yds very frequently. Prairie dogs would rather not be up in that mess, so the shot numbers are drastically reduced in the first place.

Now if we're talking pups at the end of april or early may... those little striped gopher-sized fellas can be difficult to land first round hits on past 400-500 or so no matter the conditions or how well I'm locked in. Some of them are no more than an inch or inch and half wide when standing tall! I go from shaving their hair on the left, to shaving their hair on the right with rounds launched less than 1 second apart! However, this can be easily remedied with a little patience, as you wait for them to clump up on a mound and present a much larger target. Often providing a 2 for 1 or even 3-4 for 1 shot opportunity. Parts of the ones that get hit can kill the ones standing around. Pretty effective when you're trying to neutralize a towns expansion capability for the year.

Though I must say, I have no interest in making these attempts in South Dakota conditions with lightweight bullets. A finitely tuned 6BRA or 6Dasher is right at home for the task. A tenth of a mil forgiveness in the wind is very welcomed on those small targets at the further ranges. It never occurs to me to bring my AR15's to the dog town. They just don't seem to provide the level of repeatable precision necessary to get the shot to impact percentages where I'd want them to be. My goal is to have at least 1 prairie dog killed for each round fired. As long as I'm patient, I can get enough triples and doubles to eclipse my misses and come out ahead. If I get a little too greedy, well that percentage will suffer greatly if I'm taking too many shots outside the ballistic comfort zone of the cartridge I'm running. I'm VERY guilty of doing this with my 17WSM RimX rimfire rifles! ;)

I find that it doesn't serve me to speculate on who is lying about their performances online. However, I can always invite shooters to a pdog town if I'm ever that curious about their ability to perform the feats they advertise. I'll either witness it with my own eyes then, or be treated by the barrage of excuses as to why it is not occurring as they said it would. A shooter that could accomplish sequential hits on prairie dogs with a 50gr 22 cal bullet at a distance of 800yds repeatedly in the areas I shoot?... boy, that fella could surely teach me a thing or two about being a rifleman. My 22BR with 80gr bergers can run with the best of them in the 22cal category... but 800yds gets a little sporty most days. In early fall, when the pdogs are the size of a fat house cat... it gets a lot easier. :D

I often do find myself overly concerned with other shooters hit percentages. Not for admonishing them, but for any ways I can help them improve it! If a shooter can't find the strength within them to avoid stretching the truth... maybe I can help them gain the skillset which would allow them to match their capabilities up with their claims. They might just ratchet their claims up even higher, but that's none of my business. Maybe you could help that fella become a real shooter @Pmacc60! That's a worthwhile goal if ever there was one. One direction is divisive and hostile. The other direction is fun and inviting. I'm trying to suggest that we take stock of our attitudes in the way we approach other shooters. I've been overly harsh with people that made unrealistic claims before, and it usually just doesn't turn out nicely. Rifle enthusiasts are going to have quite the battle on our hands in the next few years. I'd suggest we find a way to unite, rather than divide... if there's any practical way to do it.

Just something to consider. :)

MZ7BoXVh.jpg


Another thing to consider is that it's 2021... and technology is prevalent! Allow me to demonstrate. Earlier today I quickly grabbed a rifle and put 5 shots on target at 300yds, just to show how easy it is to give demonstrations to the masses these days. This took me about 1 minute to setup a couple tripods and a minute to actually run the video. It took maybe another minute to upload it, and it will take youtube 4-20 hours to finish encoding the 4k version. (if ever) There really isn't any reason not to provide proof in modern times, if you put any stock in what people think of your claims. You don't have to edit it, in fact it's better if you don't, and you can even do range confirmation by giving the camera a glance through the LRF quick. Regardless of that, if I can shoot the video below, off a rolly chair, up on a bench, out my window with monstrous mirage obscuring the target due to the heat from the house escaping into the cold, then it stands to reason there are plenty of folks walking around that can hit a prairie dogs quite a ways out there with some regularity. Especially laying out in a proper firing position on a lovely day. I know a few guys like that. I'm not thinking they'd be using lightweight bullets either... but that's another story. I can say I'd watch a video of someone consistently popping pdogs at 800yds with 50gr'ers out of an AR. That would be a fun video to watch indeed!

 

longestrange

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Had a single shot 22 rimfire as a kid. Went out shooting marmots, which is about the same as a fat pdog. Elevation was over 5000 feet above sea level, day was warm. Plenty of marmots around and my bro had a similar setup. We used to shoot .22 BB caps and CB caps and shorts and longs and long rifles, depending on our budgets at the moment. Don't remember what we had at the time. We were hiking and took the shots offhand. Iron sights only. Just a side note: shooting a longer cartridge after a box or so of shorter ones resulted in extraction problems. Seems there was a buildup of carbon or something just in front of the case mouth.
So the longest shot was around 24000 miles to the SW. Time to impact was around a day but since the international date line was in that direction you could hit the critters pretty much when you pulled the trigger. That also cancelled out the coriolis effect.
The strategy was to turn around and shoot them at about 10 yards to the NE, then brag about the 24K mile shots and hit percentages.
 
Last edited:

Pmacc60

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Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
378
I don't know the fella you're referring to OP (@Pmacc60), so I dare not speculate what category of shooter he is. However, I can share my own experiences which might help frame your approach. When I lay down in my pdog towns here on a nice calm day with my 6mm Dasher or 6BR or 6BRA, etc... adult prairie dogs fully exposed atop their mounds at 800yds will have a very difficult time remaining alive once I've launched a couple rounds to that general location on the dog town. It can take a few misses to get dialed into the condition some days if it's really sporty. Those big chunky ones are 5-6" worth of hit zone. More, if they are laid out horizontal a bit rather than standing tall. By mid day, I've usually fired enough rounds to enough sectors of the town to really be locked in and it becomes ruthlessly deadly for them inside of 800yds. On days like that, 500yds and inward becomes quite boring. However, if the conditions start taking a turn for the worse, that capability gets ratcheted in close VERY quickly and exponentially if we're talking about trying to keep at least a 90% hit ratio. When the wind starts bucking 20mph+... I need to ratchet my distance expectation back to about 300yds, and even closer the smaller of a cartridge I'm running. Ten mph or less and if its nice and steady, I can still do some good work out there at the further reaches of the average sized towns. In a 30mph wind... I just don't find myself connecting past 400yds very frequently. Prairie dogs would rather not be up in that mess, so the shot numbers are drastically reduced in the first place.

Now if we're talking pups at the end of april or early may... those little striped gopher-sized fellas can be difficult to land first round hits on past 400-500 or so no matter the conditions or how well I'm locked in. Some of them are no more than an inch or inch and half wide when standing tall! I go from shaving their hair on the left, to shaving their hair on the right with rounds launched less than 1 second apart! However, this can be easily remedied with a little patience, as you wait for them to clump up on a mound and present a much larger target. Often providing a 2 for 1 or even 3-4 for 1 shot opportunity. Parts of the ones that get hit can kill the ones standing around. Pretty effective when you're trying to neutralize a towns expansion capability for the year.

Though I must say, I have no interest in making these attempts in South Dakota conditions with lightweight bullets. A finitely tuned 6BRA or 6Dasher is right at home for the task. A tenth of a mil forgiveness in the wind is very welcomed on those small targets at the further ranges. It never occurs to me to bring my AR15's to the dog town. They just don't seem to provide the level of repeatable precision necessary to get the shot to impact percentages where I'd want them to be. My goal is to have at least 1 prairie dog killed for each round fired. As long as I'm patient, I can get enough triples and doubles to eclipse my misses and come out ahead. If I get a little too greedy, well that percentage will suffer greatly if I'm taking too many shots outside the ballistic comfort zone of the cartridge I'm running. I'm VERY guilty of doing this with my 17WSM RimX rimfire rifles! ;)

I find that it doesn't serve me to speculate on who is lying about their performances online. However, I can always invite shooters to a pdog town if I'm ever that curious about their ability to perform the feats they advertise. I'll either witness it with my own eyes then, or be treated by the barrage of excuses as to why it is not occurring as they said it would. A shooter that could accomplish sequential hits on prairie dogs with a 50gr 22 cal bullet at a distance of 800yds repeatedly in the areas I shoot?... boy, that fella could surely teach me a thing or two about being a rifleman. My 22BR with 80gr bergers can run with the best of them in the 22cal category... but 800yds gets a little sporty most days. In early fall, when the pdogs are the size of a fat house cat... it gets a lot easier. :D

I often do find myself overly concerned with other shooters hit percentages. Not for admonishing them, but for any ways I can help them improve it! If a shooter can't find the strength within them to avoid stretching the truth... maybe I can help them gain the skillset which would allow them to match their capabilities up with their claims. They might just ratchet their claims up even higher, but that's none of my business. Maybe you could help that fella become a real shooter @Pmacc60! That's a worthwhile goal if ever there was one. One direction is divisive and hostile. The other direction is fun and inviting. I'm trying to suggest that we take stock of our attitudes in the way we approach other shooters. I've been overly harsh with people that made unrealistic claims before, and it usually just doesn't turn out nicely. Rifle enthusiasts are going to have quite the battle on our hands in the next few years. I'd suggest we find a way to unite, rather than divide... if there's any practical way to do it.

Just something to consider. :)

MZ7BoXVh.jpg


Another thing to consider is that it's 2021... and technology is prevalent! Allow me to demonstrate. Earlier today I quickly grabbed a rifle and put 5 shots on target at 300yds, just to show how easy it is to give demonstrations to the masses these days. This took me about 1 minute to setup a couple tripods and a minute to actually run the video. It took maybe another minute to upload it, and it will take youtube 4-20 hours to finish encoding the 4k version. (if ever) There really isn't any reason not to provide proof in modern times, if you put any stock in what people think of your claims. You don't have to edit it, in fact it's better if you don't, and you can even do range confirmation by giving the camera a glance through the LRF quick. Regardless of that, if I can shoot the video below, off a rolly chair, up on a bench, out my window with monstrous mirage obscuring the target due to the heat from the house escaping into the cold, then it stands to reason there are plenty of folks walking around that can hit a prairie dogs quite a ways out there with some regularity. Especially laying out in a proper firing position on a lovely day. I know a few guys like that. I'm not thinking they'd be using lightweight bullets either... but that's another story. I can say I'd watch a video of someone consistently popping pdogs at 800yds with 50gr'ers out of an AR. That would be a fun video to watch indeed!

Very well explained, thank you for the time you put into this answer.
 

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