Which load is most accurate at 600 yards?
One with an extreme spread of 10 inches.
One with a mean radius of 1.9 inches.
Full Length or Neck Only; What's Best Resizing for Accuracy?
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One with an extreme spread of 10 inches.
One with a mean radius of 1.9 inches.
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
Savage 12BVSS
Well-Known Member
Dean hits the nail on the head, I suggested this same thing way back in this page heavy thread. Try neck and full length sizing with same load and bullet in same gun and let the gun show you what it shoots best with. I did and both guns I tried shot better neck sized and chamber formed than full length sized. Follow what others say or follow what your gun actually shows you........anybody can test this their self.
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
That's a really hard question to answer. Maybe you would help us out here.
Same number of shots each.
What exactly does "shoots best" mean?
It is really difficult not to insult your intelligence after your last series of posts. That said, if these really do demonstrate your intellect you probably should not be handling firearms. I will respond no further to these inane posts.
I came on here to post info about the 33-28 Nosler elk rifle I just built, but this thread caught me eye and I can't resist. This is a long post, but I am going to explain why neck-only sizing isn't the best way, then explain how it might be.
I shoot NBRSA 600 and 1000 yd BR. I make absolutely ZERO compromises when it comes to accuracy and precision, and don't do anything that doesn't help accuracy and precision. I spend an awful lot of time loading and tuning.
I have a scale that measures to the thousandth of a grain. I weigh and sort primers. I use the K&N Gauge to seat primers that measures each primer cup height and case pocket depth so I can get exactly the desired amount of crush on each primer in each specific case. I seat bullets with Wilson inline dies and a 21st Century Hydro Seater that measures seating pressure, and then sort the rounds by the seating pressure. I measure the nose of the bullet in two places and sort, and then I spin each bullet on a Bullet Genie and sort again. I anneal after every firing (though I have had good results not annealing at all. Just never do the anneal every 3 or 4 rounds thing). I have Whidden custom dies and I use both a bushing and expander. I turn necks for .003" clearance on my 6BRA and .004" on my 300 WSM. I now chamber my own barrels and do my own stock work.
I do NOT neck only size and no one I know that competes does. I bump the shoulder .002" to .003". Before I had the custom dies I would occasionally have to small base size to reduce diameter, and small basing made ZERO difference in how well the rounds shot. Over the years we have added MORE clearance to our loaded rounds in shoulder length, neck clearance, and body clearance, not less.
I thought I knew what was important to make precision loads when I was shooting hunting rifles, but with LR BR my eyes have sure been opened. A 300 WSM needs to average 5/8" or better 5-shot groups at 200 yds to be competitive at distance. A 6 BRA needs to average at least 3/8" 5-shot groups at 200 yds to compete at distance. Official Screamer Groups (they give you a patch) are 5-shots 1" and under at 600 yds and 3" and under at 1000. Screamer groups will usually be small group of the match, though the all-time records are smaller. More importantly, at 600 yds 3 and 6 target aggs need to be in the low to mid two's to win in average conditions, and in the high 4s/low 5s at 1000.
I bump the shoulder on every bottle-necked cartridge I load for, from 6 BRA to 416 Rem, and I always find good accuracy. The hunting guns--even long range hunting guns--do not come close to the precision of an LR BR rifle. I do not expect them to. However, there are some unique things to LR BR that do not apply to even long rage hunting rifles, and while a long range hunting rifle isn't a good choice at the LR BR firing line, a LR BR rifle is not a great long range hunting rifle.
In LR BR, we get good conditions maybe 10% of the time, average conditions 80% of the time, poor conditions 10% of the time. Since most of the shooting is in average conditions, we are always fighting the wind. Some days I have it dialed, other days not so much. The best technique to overcome the wind is to run your shot string as fast as possible so as to keep all the shots in the same micro condition. To do that the rifle must track nearly perfectly so any adjustments need to be zero to very minor between shots.
Most of us have right bolt, dual port, left eject actions so we can single feed very quickly. With a rifle that is tracking well, getting 5-shots off in 15 seconds or better is common. Some guys can get through a 10-shot string in 20-25 sec. Having a case that has sticky extraction upsets tracking and slows you down, possibly putting you out of the condition.
At my last 1000 yd match I came in third for Light Gun agg with a 6-target agg of 5.376." The winner shot 4.939" agg. Fifth place shot a 5.554" agg. There is no statistical difference in any of those aggs, as .615" at 1000 yds is about .06 MOA. These rifles were all tuned to the same level and the shoots of about the same skill. The determining factor was most likely how well and individual shooter kept their groups in the same micro condition.
If there wasn't any wind, it wouldn't be as big of a deal to make sure the cases are well clearanced in the chamber. Thus neck-only sizing may not hurt anything when you don't have to make small groups at long range. I have a hard time saying it might be better to neck only size, but I have no issue if someone else thinks that.
When hunting at longer ranges we usually only make one shot, two at the most, and we don't need that ability to rapid fire. We also don't need BR level groups. What we do need is an reasonable grouping rifle that is good at putting the first round on target. That drives long range hunting rifles to use ultra high BC bullets that don't group as well as typical competition bullets but are better in the wind--since we don't usually have wind flags along our course of fire when hunting. Whatever it takes to get those first rounds hits is what we need to do, and if neck-only sizing works for someone then they should keep doing that.
I shoot NBRSA 600 and 1000 yd BR. I make absolutely ZERO compromises when it comes to accuracy and precision, and don't do anything that doesn't help accuracy and precision. I spend an awful lot of time loading and tuning.
I have a scale that measures to the thousandth of a grain. I weigh and sort primers. I use the K&N Gauge to seat primers that measures each primer cup height and case pocket depth so I can get exactly the desired amount of crush on each primer in each specific case. I seat bullets with Wilson inline dies and a 21st Century Hydro Seater that measures seating pressure, and then sort the rounds by the seating pressure. I measure the nose of the bullet in two places and sort, and then I spin each bullet on a Bullet Genie and sort again. I anneal after every firing (though I have had good results not annealing at all. Just never do the anneal every 3 or 4 rounds thing). I have Whidden custom dies and I use both a bushing and expander. I turn necks for .003" clearance on my 6BRA and .004" on my 300 WSM. I now chamber my own barrels and do my own stock work.
I do NOT neck only size and no one I know that competes does. I bump the shoulder .002" to .003". Before I had the custom dies I would occasionally have to small base size to reduce diameter, and small basing made ZERO difference in how well the rounds shot. Over the years we have added MORE clearance to our loaded rounds in shoulder length, neck clearance, and body clearance, not less.
I thought I knew what was important to make precision loads when I was shooting hunting rifles, but with LR BR my eyes have sure been opened. A 300 WSM needs to average 5/8" or better 5-shot groups at 200 yds to be competitive at distance. A 6 BRA needs to average at least 3/8" 5-shot groups at 200 yds to compete at distance. Official Screamer Groups (they give you a patch) are 5-shots 1" and under at 600 yds and 3" and under at 1000. Screamer groups will usually be small group of the match, though the all-time records are smaller. More importantly, at 600 yds 3 and 6 target aggs need to be in the low to mid two's to win in average conditions, and in the high 4s/low 5s at 1000.
I bump the shoulder on every bottle-necked cartridge I load for, from 6 BRA to 416 Rem, and I always find good accuracy. The hunting guns--even long range hunting guns--do not come close to the precision of an LR BR rifle. I do not expect them to. However, there are some unique things to LR BR that do not apply to even long rage hunting rifles, and while a long range hunting rifle isn't a good choice at the LR BR firing line, a LR BR rifle is not a great long range hunting rifle.
In LR BR, we get good conditions maybe 10% of the time, average conditions 80% of the time, poor conditions 10% of the time. Since most of the shooting is in average conditions, we are always fighting the wind. Some days I have it dialed, other days not so much. The best technique to overcome the wind is to run your shot string as fast as possible so as to keep all the shots in the same micro condition. To do that the rifle must track nearly perfectly so any adjustments need to be zero to very minor between shots.
Most of us have right bolt, dual port, left eject actions so we can single feed very quickly. With a rifle that is tracking well, getting 5-shots off in 15 seconds or better is common. Some guys can get through a 10-shot string in 20-25 sec. Having a case that has sticky extraction upsets tracking and slows you down, possibly putting you out of the condition.
At my last 1000 yd match I came in third for Light Gun agg with a 6-target agg of 5.376." The winner shot 4.939" agg. Fifth place shot a 5.554" agg. There is no statistical difference in any of those aggs, as .615" at 1000 yds is about .06 MOA. These rifles were all tuned to the same level and the shoots of about the same skill. The determining factor was most likely how well and individual shooter kept their groups in the same micro condition.
If there wasn't any wind, it wouldn't be as big of a deal to make sure the cases are well clearanced in the chamber. Thus neck-only sizing may not hurt anything when you don't have to make small groups at long range. I have a hard time saying it might be better to neck only size, but I have no issue if someone else thinks that.
When hunting at longer ranges we usually only make one shot, two at the most, and we don't need that ability to rapid fire. We also don't need BR level groups. What we do need is an reasonable grouping rifle that is good at putting the first round on target. That drives long range hunting rifles to use ultra high BC bullets that don't group as well as typical competition bullets but are better in the wind--since we don't usually have wind flags along our course of fire when hunting. Whatever it takes to get those first rounds hits is what we need to do, and if neck-only sizing works for someone then they should keep doing that.
Savage 12BVSS
Well-Known Member
Done with the thread and done with the OP, I respond to accuracy and never try to make my gun shoot worse only better.
Nothing against you afp1 you made good points and go far beyond what most loaders do for sure. Appreciate your input and perspective as well, my guns are all hunting rifles and though accurate I don't shoot competition and fight small groups in the wind like yourself. For me its a bad day when I have to follow up a shot cause its on a living creature. Perhaps your post says it all actually..........hunters and competition shooters shoot in two different disciplines and have differing conditions to contend with. Good Shooting
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
Afp1,
Thanks for mentioning that everyone who competes full length sizes their cases. Especially about reducing the resized case dimensions more.
This echos what Sierra Bullets proved back in the early 1960's. Cases have to fit the chamber like a turd in a violin case ...... the phrase often stated by their ballistic technician who reloaded their cases used to test their stuff for quality getting 10-shot groups in the ones with best quality bullets. He was convinced to do so by one of their tool and die makers who was one of the "P" letters in the PPC cartridges, Ferris Pindell.
Thanks for mentioning that everyone who competes full length sizes their cases. Especially about reducing the resized case dimensions more.
This echos what Sierra Bullets proved back in the early 1960's. Cases have to fit the chamber like a turd in a violin case ...... the phrase often stated by their ballistic technician who reloaded their cases used to test their stuff for quality getting 10-shot groups in the ones with best quality bullets. He was convinced to do so by one of their tool and die makers who was one of the "P" letters in the PPC cartridges, Ferris Pindell.
Done with the thread and done with the OP, I respond to accuracy and never try to make my gun shoot worse only better.
Nothing against you afp1 you made good points and go far beyond what most loaders do for sure. Appreciate your input and perspective as well, my guns are all hunting rifles and though accurate I don't shoot competition and fight small groups in the wind like yourself. For me its a bad day when I have to follow up a shot cause its on a living creature. Perhaps your post says it all actually..........hunters and competition shooters shoot in two different disciplines and have differing conditions to contend with. Good Shooting
Yeah I did take a long time to say the hunting and target shooting competitions are different. It's different among the various types of competitions as well. One thing I like a lot about LR BR is that there is no "attitude" among the shooters like I have seen in other types of shooting competitions. Everyone is helpful and friendly.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I finally made it through all of the post and came to a conclusion. There are many opinions and lots of proof for all of the different ways of sizing so there must be another element that causes so many to disagree. Many have posted instances that there way proved them to be right.
What it looks like to me is that there are so many different styles and types of shooting, so many ways that have been taught, and so many ways that have worked for the shooter in his type of shooting, I can understand why so many different ways exist.
I looked back through the 50+ years of reloading and the different methods I used at the time and the reasons and hear is a summation of the different methods I used for my self.
Like most I started loading because It was cheaper and better than factory ammo. I started with basic tools that I could afford. I follower the procedures in the loading manuals to the letter. there were no special tools for measuring cartridge size, just the chamber. If it fit, it was good. and if you hit somewhere in a pie plate you went hunting.
Then came the second stage. I worked on my skills as a shooter and found them hindered by my ammo and rifle quality, so I started improving the quality of both rifle and ammo and begin feeling comfortable with shots over 200 yards. I really had not changed much in the loading procedure except the care and consistency while loading.
I then started trying different things with loading and components to understand what effects these changes made, and saw a marked improvement in abilities and accuracy. (Still hunting).
With all of the careful loading and selecting of components for my ammo and care and cleaning of my rifles, I became confident enough to take 500 yard shots successfully and with confidence.
By this time I had learned many important things that could improve my shooting and felt good about this accomplishment as far as I was concerned. (I knew there were much better shots than I, but at least I wouldn't shame myself around them.
The military had taught me many things that helped me as a shooter, but nothing about reloading, so I had to learn this by my self. At this stage of my reloading life I started match shooting and by watching others and trying to see what they did to be so good. (Most had secrets that they wouldn't tell you for fear of helping you become as good as them, so you just had to watch and observe and separate the truth from the fiction and also to figure out what there edge was. Most of these guys were just good shots and practiced a lot. There ammo was not any better than mine at longer distance as proof of the 600 and 1000 yard scores.
The next stage was when I started training under a master gunsmith and found out just how little I did know about accuracy loading my ammo. this is where I noticed the departure from what I had been doing and the different requirements of ammo for different uses. He used or made tools for checking his reloads that I had never seen or even heard of. The fact that I was his sons best friend
helped me to pry some of the what for's and why's from him helping me understand what effects some of these differences made for that type pf shooting.
Over the many years of competitive shooting and building firearms, I have developed different requirements for the ammo for many different reasons. Accuracy, dependability, performance, function, Need, type of shooting, shooter ability, type of weapon, even
the way it functions, and to many more to mention.
So my conclusions are that no "ONE" method of sizing is correct for everyone, their way may be the best for their style and needs, but not for others. What works well in one rifle may not work well in a different rifle. I looked at all of the rifles that I currently use and there purpose and can see At least a half dozen different ways to load ammo for best results with them. and realize that with every load compromises must be made to get the best performance from that rifle.
So in my opinion There is no "One" method that is best, just like there is no "ONE" cartridge, or "ONE" rifle. load the way that gives you the best performance for your needs. I load the way that gives me the best performance for my rifles and there needs. At the present time I no longer match shoot and my desires and needs are to build and load for Hunting rifles that will perform like target rifles. So my focus is on that at present and my loading methods are centered around that.
Full length or neck sizing should not be a general topic, It should be a choice for the use and requirements of the firearm and the acceptance of it's accuracy.
J E CUSTOM
What it looks like to me is that there are so many different styles and types of shooting, so many ways that have been taught, and so many ways that have worked for the shooter in his type of shooting, I can understand why so many different ways exist.
I looked back through the 50+ years of reloading and the different methods I used at the time and the reasons and hear is a summation of the different methods I used for my self.
Like most I started loading because It was cheaper and better than factory ammo. I started with basic tools that I could afford. I follower the procedures in the loading manuals to the letter. there were no special tools for measuring cartridge size, just the chamber. If it fit, it was good. and if you hit somewhere in a pie plate you went hunting.
Then came the second stage. I worked on my skills as a shooter and found them hindered by my ammo and rifle quality, so I started improving the quality of both rifle and ammo and begin feeling comfortable with shots over 200 yards. I really had not changed much in the loading procedure except the care and consistency while loading.
I then started trying different things with loading and components to understand what effects these changes made, and saw a marked improvement in abilities and accuracy. (Still hunting).
With all of the careful loading and selecting of components for my ammo and care and cleaning of my rifles, I became confident enough to take 500 yard shots successfully and with confidence.
By this time I had learned many important things that could improve my shooting and felt good about this accomplishment as far as I was concerned. (I knew there were much better shots than I, but at least I wouldn't shame myself around them.
The military had taught me many things that helped me as a shooter, but nothing about reloading, so I had to learn this by my self. At this stage of my reloading life I started match shooting and by watching others and trying to see what they did to be so good. (Most had secrets that they wouldn't tell you for fear of helping you become as good as them, so you just had to watch and observe and separate the truth from the fiction and also to figure out what there edge was. Most of these guys were just good shots and practiced a lot. There ammo was not any better than mine at longer distance as proof of the 600 and 1000 yard scores.
The next stage was when I started training under a master gunsmith and found out just how little I did know about accuracy loading my ammo. this is where I noticed the departure from what I had been doing and the different requirements of ammo for different uses. He used or made tools for checking his reloads that I had never seen or even heard of. The fact that I was his sons best friend
helped me to pry some of the what for's and why's from him helping me understand what effects some of these differences made for that type pf shooting.
Over the many years of competitive shooting and building firearms, I have developed different requirements for the ammo for many different reasons. Accuracy, dependability, performance, function, Need, type of shooting, shooter ability, type of weapon, even
the way it functions, and to many more to mention.So my conclusions are that no "ONE" method of sizing is correct for everyone, their way may be the best for their style and needs, but not for others. What works well in one rifle may not work well in a different rifle. I looked at all of the rifles that I currently use and there purpose and can see At least a half dozen different ways to load ammo for best results with them. and realize that with every load compromises must be made to get the best performance from that rifle.
So in my opinion There is no "One" method that is best, just like there is no "ONE" cartridge, or "ONE" rifle. load the way that gives you the best performance for your needs. I load the way that gives me the best performance for my rifles and there needs. At the present time I no longer match shoot and my desires and needs are to build and load for Hunting rifles that will perform like target rifles. So my focus is on that at present and my loading methods are centered around that.
Full length or neck sizing should not be a general topic, It should be a choice for the use and requirements of the firearm and the acceptance of it's accuracy.
J E CUSTOM
There are a few LR BR folks with bad attitudes.
They don't like my definition of accuracy being the largest groups fired which happens when all the variables add up at their extremes. 20% or more bigger than aggregate average is common.
The agg of a 1, 5 and 9 inch group is the same as a 4, 5 and 6 inch group. 5.
Would you believe the smallest groups happen when all the variables are minimal? Or just cancel each other out?
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