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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Finally what the Raptor LRSS was designed to be.... a long adventure coming..
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 1926534" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>no hard real world numbers on a 28" pipe yet, educated guess, 3250-3300 fps. My new reamers that will be arriving hopefully in the next month or so will come with min length throats Designed for the bore rider bullet designs. Then for those that want to shoot conventional bullets will just use my throating reamers to cut throats to proper length for those bullets.</p><p></p><p>the extremely fast twists make me nervous with the cutting edge bullets. In my wildcats that tend to run on the outer limits of performance anyway, using an extremely fast twist will greatly magnify environmental day to day changes Compared to other rounds, for a big game rifle this is really not a concern because the goal is different.</p><p></p><p>however, care must still be taken to get good function over a wide range of temps. For example, if you have a 9 twist barrel and shooting a 245 gr berger at top end pressures when its 50 degrees out and then go out when its 95 degrees, you will see a pressure spike no matter what powders your using. Will it be dangerous, not unless your loading to red line pressures at 50 degrees.</p><p></p><p>however, take a 240 gr solid driven to max pressures in a 6 twist barrel, 33% steeper pitch then a 9 twist in same example and likely you will see dramatically more influence of the increased temps. Just the nature of these beasts.</p><p></p><p>i also am NOT a huge fan of any solid bullet design for long to extreme range performance in calibers smaller then 338. Now before everyone starts warming up the tar and plucking the chicken, let me explain why. There are several reasons but the majority of them limit you to very few bullet options.</p><p></p><p>again, everything i say is based on MY wildcat cartridges, not a blanket statement for everything so keep this in mind.</p><p></p><p>if you look at the CE lazer 240 gr 30 cal projo, they are recommending a 6 twist barrel. A 300 Raptor with a 6 twist will be able to shoot only one type of projo, that being a solid, so right there your limited to barnes, hammer or cutting edge for the main bullet options.</p><p></p><p>with the Lazer, you really should be running a min length throat set up for bore riders to get the max performance and accuracy out of these designs. Now you have just limited your choices to CE bullets only. If they shoot, great, but i have seen around 20% of extreme performance rifles have issues with these bullets.</p><p></p><p>even if your rifle shoots them well, very well, look at what you have, in my 300 Raptor, likely you will be seeing around 3300-3400 fps depending on barrel length used (30-34"). But your getting around .7 g1 bc or .358 g7 bc. At least thats what is advertised. Not bad at all but consider this, the berger 245 gr has a bc in the .810 g1 area.......</p><p></p><p>lets look at some vital numbers comparing the two:</p><p></p><p>muzzle energies will be very close to the same and with both having a 100 yard zero, lets see what they look like at 1000 yards: these numbers are at my elevation of 3400 ft, 10 mph full value wind</p><p></p><p>245 gr berger</p><p>14.9 moa drop</p><p>2.4 moa drift</p><p>2448 fps velocity</p><p>3260 ft/lbs energy</p><p></p><p>240 gr CE</p><p>15.4 moa drop</p><p>2.8 moa drift</p><p>2337 fps</p><p>2911 ft/lbs energy</p><p></p><p>not dramatically different, however the lead core bullet has already caught up and is pulling ahead of the solid, already a full 110 fps faster and 300 ft/lbs more energy</p><p></p><p>now at 2000 yards</p><p>245 gr berger</p><p>43.9 moa drop</p><p>5.1 moa drift</p><p>1689 fps</p><p>1552 ft/lbs</p><p></p><p>240 gr CE</p><p>47.8 moa drop</p><p>6.1 moa drift</p><p>1507 fps</p><p>1210 ft/lbs</p><p></p><p>this is where things really start to get different. Drop is 4 moa less with the lead bullet, thats 80" less drop. Even more critical drift is a full moa less. The retained velocity edge has now grown to over 180 fps and pushing 350 ft/lb advantage</p><p></p><p>now at 3000 yards</p><p>245 gr. Berger</p><p>94.5 moa drop</p><p>7.8 moa drift</p><p>1158 fps 3120 yard supersonic limit</p><p>730 ft/lbs</p><p></p><p>240 gr. CE</p><p>110.2 moa drop</p><p>9.6 moa drift</p><p>1031 fps. (Subsonic) 2721 yard supersonic limit</p><p>566 ft/lbs</p><p></p><p>now i realize these are extreme ranges and many will never shoot to these ranges but shows the comparision. The lead core has a nearly 16 moa advantage in drop. Drift is nearly two moa less for the lead. Velocity, the solid has dropped well below supersonic velocity, in spite of what is claimed these days, you will experience some level of instability and inconsistency with ANY bullet at this point. The lead is still fully supersonic and consistent and predictable....</p><p></p><p>now, some will say the BC for the solid is much more consistent bullet to bullet and there may be something to that at ranges of 2k and past but inside that, if you sort your bullets properly, this will really not be an issue.</p><p></p><p>then lets get to the real kicker here. Say you get your rifle finished, start doing load development and accuracy testing and the rifle simply DOES NOT LIKE the 245 gr berger or the 240 gr cutting edge....</p><p></p><p>well, with the 8.5 twist of the rifle shooting the 245 gr berger, you also have the option to try the 230 gr berger. However you also have the option to try the 230 gr hornady Atip (0.823 bc likely a bit exaggerated) or the 250 gr hornady Atip (0.878 bc, also likely a bit high). Or the 230 gr sierra mk (0.800 bc), or the Hammer 199 gr, or the Hammer 214 gr or the barnes 200 gr or 212 gr lrx. Not to Mention many others that could work very well.</p><p></p><p>with the rifle chambered for the cutting edge lazer, you could try a lighter lazer bullet for sure and likely find something that would work but that would be about all your options without recutting the throat of your rifle.</p><p></p><p>again, over the years, i have tested most of the new bullet designs that have come out over the past 18 years in my wildcats. I love the solid bullet designs, however, when bullet caliber is under 338, they simply CAN NOT compete ballistically with the best and many lead core bullet designs. You just can not get enough mass in the smaller caliber bullets with a solid design to get BC numbers up to compete with the lead core designs. </p><p></p><p>now the lead cores are not perfect either. They have more potential for bullet to bullet variation but that can largely be eliminated with sorting. They also can have bullet integrity issues. If the jacket to core bond is weakened, you will have issues but the bullet companies are getting this pretty well figured out for the super performance mags. Have tested a load of bullets for berger trying to destroy them in my wildcats!!</p><p></p><p>in the end, i much prefer the less finicky twist rates and higher bc potential with lead core bullets in sub 338 cal rifles compared to solids.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 1926534, member: 10"] no hard real world numbers on a 28” pipe yet, educated guess, 3250-3300 fps. My new reamers that will be arriving hopefully in the next month or so will come with min length throats Designed for the bore rider bullet designs. Then for those that want to shoot conventional bullets will just use my throating reamers to cut throats to proper length for those bullets. the extremely fast twists make me nervous with the cutting edge bullets. In my wildcats that tend to run on the outer limits of performance anyway, using an extremely fast twist will greatly magnify environmental day to day changes Compared to other rounds, for a big game rifle this is really not a concern because the goal is different. however, care must still be taken to get good function over a wide range of temps. For example, if you have a 9 twist barrel and shooting a 245 gr berger at top end pressures when its 50 degrees out and then go out when its 95 degrees, you will see a pressure spike no matter what powders your using. Will it be dangerous, not unless your loading to red line pressures at 50 degrees. however, take a 240 gr solid driven to max pressures in a 6 twist barrel, 33% steeper pitch then a 9 twist in same example and likely you will see dramatically more influence of the increased temps. Just the nature of these beasts. i also am NOT a huge fan of any solid bullet design for long to extreme range performance in calibers smaller then 338. Now before everyone starts warming up the tar and plucking the chicken, let me explain why. There are several reasons but the majority of them limit you to very few bullet options. again, everything i say is based on MY wildcat cartridges, not a blanket statement for everything so keep this in mind. if you look at the CE lazer 240 gr 30 cal projo, they are recommending a 6 twist barrel. A 300 Raptor with a 6 twist will be able to shoot only one type of projo, that being a solid, so right there your limited to barnes, hammer or cutting edge for the main bullet options. with the Lazer, you really should be running a min length throat set up for bore riders to get the max performance and accuracy out of these designs. Now you have just limited your choices to CE bullets only. If they shoot, great, but i have seen around 20% of extreme performance rifles have issues with these bullets. even if your rifle shoots them well, very well, look at what you have, in my 300 Raptor, likely you will be seeing around 3300-3400 fps depending on barrel length used (30-34”). But your getting around .7 g1 bc or .358 g7 bc. At least thats what is advertised. Not bad at all but consider this, the berger 245 gr has a bc in the .810 g1 area....... lets look at some vital numbers comparing the two: muzzle energies will be very close to the same and with both having a 100 yard zero, lets see what they look like at 1000 yards: these numbers are at my elevation of 3400 ft, 10 mph full value wind 245 gr berger 14.9 moa drop 2.4 moa drift 2448 fps velocity 3260 ft/lbs energy 240 gr CE 15.4 moa drop 2.8 moa drift 2337 fps 2911 ft/lbs energy not dramatically different, however the lead core bullet has already caught up and is pulling ahead of the solid, already a full 110 fps faster and 300 ft/lbs more energy now at 2000 yards 245 gr berger 43.9 moa drop 5.1 moa drift 1689 fps 1552 ft/lbs 240 gr CE 47.8 moa drop 6.1 moa drift 1507 fps 1210 ft/lbs this is where things really start to get different. Drop is 4 moa less with the lead bullet, thats 80” less drop. Even more critical drift is a full moa less. The retained velocity edge has now grown to over 180 fps and pushing 350 ft/lb advantage now at 3000 yards 245 gr. Berger 94.5 moa drop 7.8 moa drift 1158 fps 3120 yard supersonic limit 730 ft/lbs 240 gr. CE 110.2 moa drop 9.6 moa drift 1031 fps. (Subsonic) 2721 yard supersonic limit 566 ft/lbs now i realize these are extreme ranges and many will never shoot to these ranges but shows the comparision. The lead core has a nearly 16 moa advantage in drop. Drift is nearly two moa less for the lead. Velocity, the solid has dropped well below supersonic velocity, in spite of what is claimed these days, you will experience some level of instability and inconsistency with ANY bullet at this point. The lead is still fully supersonic and consistent and predictable.... now, some will say the BC for the solid is much more consistent bullet to bullet and there may be something to that at ranges of 2k and past but inside that, if you sort your bullets properly, this will really not be an issue. then lets get to the real kicker here. Say you get your rifle finished, start doing load development and accuracy testing and the rifle simply DOES NOT LIKE the 245 gr berger or the 240 gr cutting edge.... well, with the 8.5 twist of the rifle shooting the 245 gr berger, you also have the option to try the 230 gr berger. However you also have the option to try the 230 gr hornady Atip (0.823 bc likely a bit exaggerated) or the 250 gr hornady Atip (0.878 bc, also likely a bit high). Or the 230 gr sierra mk (0.800 bc), or the Hammer 199 gr, or the Hammer 214 gr or the barnes 200 gr or 212 gr lrx. Not to Mention many others that could work very well. with the rifle chambered for the cutting edge lazer, you could try a lighter lazer bullet for sure and likely find something that would work but that would be about all your options without recutting the throat of your rifle. again, over the years, i have tested most of the new bullet designs that have come out over the past 18 years in my wildcats. I love the solid bullet designs, however, when bullet caliber is under 338, they simply CAN NOT compete ballistically with the best and many lead core bullet designs. You just can not get enough mass in the smaller caliber bullets with a solid design to get BC numbers up to compete with the lead core designs. now the lead cores are not perfect either. They have more potential for bullet to bullet variation but that can largely be eliminated with sorting. They also can have bullet integrity issues. If the jacket to core bond is weakened, you will have issues but the bullet companies are getting this pretty well figured out for the super performance mags. Have tested a load of bullets for berger trying to destroy them in my wildcats!! in the end, i much prefer the less finicky twist rates and higher bc potential with lead core bullets in sub 338 cal rifles compared to solids. [/QUOTE]
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