Finally what the Raptor LRSS was designed to be.... a long adventure coming..

gnbruce

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Dec 24, 2017
Messages
98
the throat .250 with a bore rider finish cut (other wise 20n29 was about 90% fill rate). With the bore rider we gained 8 grains more powder and 120 ft/sec . We started with the 7 twist and the 240 lazers at 3200 gave us oblong holes at 100 yrds , improved when we took them to 3400 ( over pressure) went to 6 twist works great I think a 6.5 twist would do it.
 

Rum Man

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I'm going to follow your work on these Rifles.
It sounds like its coming together for you .
I'm looking for something different in the future !
I have taken my Heavy 338 Edge out to 3027 yrds . I'm thinking its time for a new project .
Thank you for all the information and your hard work on these Special Rifle's of your design !

Rum Man
 

TheFishBox

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Nov 11, 2010
Messages
502
What kind of velocity would you expect out of a 28 inch barrel? I bought a fast twist( 1:7-1:6 exit twist) bartlein barrel specifically for the 240 grain cutting edge lasers, just trying to decide what cartridge I want to go with. Would the raptor be worth it over a 30 lapua wildcat or rum? By the way I love my raptor action.
 

Fiftydriver

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Messages
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I'm going to follow your work on these Rifles.
It sounds like its coming together for you .
I'm looking for something different in the future !
I have taken my Heavy 338 Edge out to 3027 yrds . I'm thinking its time for a new project .
Thank you for all the information and your hard work on these Special Rifle's of your design !

Rum Man

i bet the Edge at +3000 yards is a challange. Most dont realize how much easier life is if they can maintain supersonic velocity to their target range. Greatly simplifies things!! 😁
 

Rum Man

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i bet the Edge at +3000 yards is a challange. Most dont realize how much easier life is if they can maintain supersonic velocity to their target range. Greatly simplifies things!! 😁
Yes Sir it was a Challenge but so exciting at the same time !
I didn't brake any records or do it to impress anybody , it was just a personal quest to hit at that distance !
I did it with minimal equipment and pure dedication. I stumbled more than once on my way up to that distance .
I'm thinking hard about a new set up and a further Challenge .

Rum Man
 

Fiftydriver

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Messages
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What kind of velocity would you expect out of a 28 inch barrel? I bought a fast twist( 1:7-1:6 exit twist) bartlein barrel specifically for the 240 grain cutting edge lasers, just trying to decide what cartridge I want to go with. Would the raptor be worth it over a 30 lapua wildcat or rum? By the way I love my raptor action.

no hard real world numbers on a 28” pipe yet, educated guess, 3250-3300 fps. My new reamers that will be arriving hopefully in the next month or so will come with min length throats Designed for the bore rider bullet designs. Then for those that want to shoot conventional bullets will just use my throating reamers to cut throats to proper length for those bullets.

the extremely fast twists make me nervous with the cutting edge bullets. In my wildcats that tend to run on the outer limits of performance anyway, using an extremely fast twist will greatly magnify environmental day to day changes Compared to other rounds, for a big game rifle this is really not a concern because the goal is different.

however, care must still be taken to get good function over a wide range of temps. For example, if you have a 9 twist barrel and shooting a 245 gr berger at top end pressures when its 50 degrees out and then go out when its 95 degrees, you will see a pressure spike no matter what powders your using. Will it be dangerous, not unless your loading to red line pressures at 50 degrees.

however, take a 240 gr solid driven to max pressures in a 6 twist barrel, 33% steeper pitch then a 9 twist in same example and likely you will see dramatically more influence of the increased temps. Just the nature of these beasts.

i also am NOT a huge fan of any solid bullet design for long to extreme range performance in calibers smaller then 338. Now before everyone starts warming up the tar and plucking the chicken, let me explain why. There are several reasons but the majority of them limit you to very few bullet options.

again, everything i say is based on MY wildcat cartridges, not a blanket statement for everything so keep this in mind.

if you look at the CE lazer 240 gr 30 cal projo, they are recommending a 6 twist barrel. A 300 Raptor with a 6 twist will be able to shoot only one type of projo, that being a solid, so right there your limited to barnes, hammer or cutting edge for the main bullet options.

with the Lazer, you really should be running a min length throat set up for bore riders to get the max performance and accuracy out of these designs. Now you have just limited your choices to CE bullets only. If they shoot, great, but i have seen around 20% of extreme performance rifles have issues with these bullets.

even if your rifle shoots them well, very well, look at what you have, in my 300 Raptor, likely you will be seeing around 3300-3400 fps depending on barrel length used (30-34”). But your getting around .7 g1 bc or .358 g7 bc. At least thats what is advertised. Not bad at all but consider this, the berger 245 gr has a bc in the .810 g1 area.......

lets look at some vital numbers comparing the two:

muzzle energies will be very close to the same and with both having a 100 yard zero, lets see what they look like at 1000 yards: these numbers are at my elevation of 3400 ft, 10 mph full value wind

245 gr berger
14.9 moa drop
2.4 moa drift
2448 fps velocity
3260 ft/lbs energy

240 gr CE
15.4 moa drop
2.8 moa drift
2337 fps
2911 ft/lbs energy

not dramatically different, however the lead core bullet has already caught up and is pulling ahead of the solid, already a full 110 fps faster and 300 ft/lbs more energy

now at 2000 yards
245 gr berger
43.9 moa drop
5.1 moa drift
1689 fps
1552 ft/lbs

240 gr CE
47.8 moa drop
6.1 moa drift
1507 fps
1210 ft/lbs

this is where things really start to get different. Drop is 4 moa less with the lead bullet, thats 80” less drop. Even more critical drift is a full moa less. The retained velocity edge has now grown to over 180 fps and pushing 350 ft/lb advantage

now at 3000 yards
245 gr. Berger
94.5 moa drop
7.8 moa drift
1158 fps 3120 yard supersonic limit
730 ft/lbs

240 gr. CE
110.2 moa drop
9.6 moa drift
1031 fps. (Subsonic) 2721 yard supersonic limit
566 ft/lbs

now i realize these are extreme ranges and many will never shoot to these ranges but shows the comparision. The lead core has a nearly 16 moa advantage in drop. Drift is nearly two moa less for the lead. Velocity, the solid has dropped well below supersonic velocity, in spite of what is claimed these days, you will experience some level of instability and inconsistency with ANY bullet at this point. The lead is still fully supersonic and consistent and predictable....

now, some will say the BC for the solid is much more consistent bullet to bullet and there may be something to that at ranges of 2k and past but inside that, if you sort your bullets properly, this will really not be an issue.

then lets get to the real kicker here. Say you get your rifle finished, start doing load development and accuracy testing and the rifle simply DOES NOT LIKE the 245 gr berger or the 240 gr cutting edge....

well, with the 8.5 twist of the rifle shooting the 245 gr berger, you also have the option to try the 230 gr berger. However you also have the option to try the 230 gr hornady Atip (0.823 bc likely a bit exaggerated) or the 250 gr hornady Atip (0.878 bc, also likely a bit high). Or the 230 gr sierra mk (0.800 bc), or the Hammer 199 gr, or the Hammer 214 gr or the barnes 200 gr or 212 gr lrx. Not to Mention many others that could work very well.

with the rifle chambered for the cutting edge lazer, you could try a lighter lazer bullet for sure and likely find something that would work but that would be about all your options without recutting the throat of your rifle.

again, over the years, i have tested most of the new bullet designs that have come out over the past 18 years in my wildcats. I love the solid bullet designs, however, when bullet caliber is under 338, they simply CAN NOT compete ballistically with the best and many lead core bullet designs. You just can not get enough mass in the smaller caliber bullets with a solid design to get BC numbers up to compete with the lead core designs.

now the lead cores are not perfect either. They have more potential for bullet to bullet variation but that can largely be eliminated with sorting. They also can have bullet integrity issues. If the jacket to core bond is weakened, you will have issues but the bullet companies are getting this pretty well figured out for the super performance mags. Have tested a load of bullets for berger trying to destroy them in my wildcats!!

in the end, i much prefer the less finicky twist rates and higher bc potential with lead core bullets in sub 338 cal rifles compared to solids.
 

Fiftydriver

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Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
7,149
Location
Fort Shaw, Montana
the throat .250 with a bore rider finish cut (other wise 20n29 was about 90% fill rate). With the bore rider we gained 8 grains more powder and 120 ft/sec . We started with the 7 twist and the 240 lazers at 3200 gave us oblong holes at 100 yrds , improved when we took them to 3400 ( over pressure) went to 6 twist works great I think a 6.5 twist would do it.

you ever run the ballistic numbers comparing the 240 gr lazer The best lead core bullets out there? I love solid bullet designs but not in sub 338 cal bore diameters, just can not compete with the best lead core options and there are dramatically more lead core options today. Just can not get enough mass in a solid of these smaller calibers to get really high bc numbers.....
 

Fiftydriver

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Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
7,149
Location
Fort Shaw, Montana
Yes Sir it was a Challenge but so exciting at the same time !
I didn't brake any records or do it to impress anybody , it was just a personal quest to hit at that distance !
I did it with minimal equipment and pure dedication. I stumbled more than once on my way up to that distance .
I'm thinking hard about a new set up and a further Challenge .

Rum Man

in my opinion, thats the perfect reason we all should be doing this. What a rifle that will hold supersonic velocities to your target distance will do is give you the ability to have CONSISTENT grouping at those ranges, not the possibility of a hit. These next comments are not directed at you specifically, just my general opinion.

someone that can hold 1 moa Or even 2 moa three shot groups at 2000 yards impresses me MUCH more then someone that gets a single hit at 4000 yards after sending six pounds of lead down at the target. Nothing against trying for the longer hits but its not precision shooting.

my goal for my rifles and wildcats has always been to extend the CONSISTENT ranging ability of hunters and shooters, not to get a random one hit on a wall of steel at 4500 yards and claim a new world record.....

in my testing, and shooting, the key to consistency at long range is maintaining supersonic velocity. I have yet to see ANY combo pass through the transsonic velocity ranges and into subsonic velocity without some degree of consistency loss. This can range from relatively minor to total bullet stability failure. Generally its somewhere in the middle to failure ranges.

however, if velocity levels are kept over 1150 fps, i maintain and have proven many times that moa level, repeatable, predictable accuracy is totally possible at any range. Now, alot goes into this, air quality, mirage, wind, all kinds of things can limit this, but in ideal conditions, i have proven many times that moa level accuracy is possible out to the limits of super sonic velocity.

case in point, i have tested my 338 Allen Magnum many times out to 3000-3100 yards and in ideal shooting conditions, on many occasions have been able to out three shots in a row on my 20” round gong. Thats 3/4 moa. That said, there have been just as many times when i was lucky to get a single shot on steel because or shooting conditions.

however, holding that level of precision and consistency when shooting 300, 500, 1000 or even 2000 yards PAST the supersonic limits of a rifle system is simply impossible and in the 30 years i have been playing this game, no one has been able to prove to me that its possible to hold consistent moa consistency past the supersonic limits of their rifle. And all that have tried have proven my opinion.....

again, i have nothing against trying for a goal, its fun and rewarding for sure. Just saying, you would be amazed at what your capable of doing if you can maintain supersonic velocities!!!
 

Rum Man

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Joined
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Messages
1,545
Location
Montana
No offense takin !
I know I was way past the point with my rifle set up . It took me 4 shots to get on target my first time at that distance . My target is 36" x 36 " it was intended for the 2 mile attempt. I don't have a military back ground and no long range training what so ever . I learned buy getting my but behind the press and the trigger . It was injoying to me to learn as I went . I do agree with you on the 1 shot on target vs a solid group .
I started at 100 yards like most guys and when I put 3 in the same hole with the Rifle it gave me a reason to push it out further .

This rifle was my first go around at long distance . My next one will be more geared towards performing at a top level .
As most would say it's just money and practice, skills ect. to get to your goal .

Thank you for all your response!
When im ready to get started on my next set up I would like to talk with you .

Thank you !
Rum Man
 

gnbruce

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
98
no hard real world numbers on a 28” pipe yet, educated guess, 3250-3300 fps. My new reamers that will be arriving hopefully in the next month or so will come with min length throats Designed for the bore rider bullet designs. Then for those that want to shoot conventional bullets will just use my throating reamers to cut throats to proper length for those bullets.

the extremely fast twists make me nervous with the cutting edge bullets. In my wildcats that tend to run on the outer limits of performance anyway, using an extremely fast twist will greatly magnify environmental day to day changes Compared to other rounds, for a big game rifle this is really not a concern because the goal is different.

however, care must still be taken to get good function over a wide range of temps. For example, if you have a 9 twist barrel and shooting a 245 gr berger at top end pressures when its 50 degrees out and then go out when its 95 degrees, you will see a pressure spike no matter what powders your using. Will it be dangerous, not unless your loading to red line pressures at 50 degrees.

however, take a 240 gr solid driven to max pressures in a 6 twist barrel, 33% steeper pitch then a 9 twist in same example and likely you will see dramatically more influence of the increased temps. Just the nature of these beasts.

i also am NOT a huge fan of any solid bullet design for long to extreme range performance in calibers smaller then 338. Now before everyone starts warming up the tar and plucking the chicken, let me explain why. There are several reasons but the majority of them limit you to very few bullet options.

again, everything i say is based on MY wildcat cartridges, not a blanket statement for everything so keep this in mind.

if you look at the CE lazer 240 gr 30 cal projo, they are recommending a 6 twist barrel. A 300 Raptor with a 6 twist will be able to shoot only one type of projo, that being a solid, so right there your limited to barnes, hammer or cutting edge for the main bullet options.

with the Lazer, you really should be running a min length throat set up for bore riders to get the max performance and accuracy out of these designs. Now you have just limited your choices to CE bullets only. If they shoot, great, but i have seen around 20% of extreme performance rifles have issues with these bullets.

even if your rifle shoots them well, very well, look at what you have, in my 300 Raptor, likely you will be seeing around 3300-3400 fps depending on barrel length used (30-34”). But your getting around .7 g1 bc or .358 g7 bc. At least thats what is advertised. Not bad at all but consider this, the berger 245 gr has a bc in the .810 g1 area.......

lets look at some vital numbers comparing the two:

muzzle energies will be very close to the same and with both having a 100 yard zero, lets see what they look like at 1000 yards: these numbers are at my elevation of 3400 ft, 10 mph full value wind

245 gr berger
14.9 moa drop
2.4 moa drift
2448 fps velocity
3260 ft/lbs energy

240 gr CE
15.4 moa drop
2.8 moa drift
2337 fps
2911 ft/lbs energy

not dramatically different, however the lead core bullet has already caught up and is pulling ahead of the solid, already a full 110 fps faster and 300 ft/lbs more energy

now at 2000 yards
245 gr berger
43.9 moa drop
5.1 moa drift
1689 fps
1552 ft/lbs

240 gr CE
47.8 moa drop
6.1 moa drift
1507 fps
1210 ft/lbs

this is where things really start to get different. Drop is 4 moa less with the lead bullet, thats 80” less drop. Even more critical drift is a full moa less. The retained velocity edge has now grown to over 180 fps and pushing 350 ft/lb advantage

now at 3000 yards
245 gr. Berger
94.5 moa drop
7.8 moa drift
1158 fps 3120 yard supersonic limit
730 ft/lbs

240 gr. CE
110.2 moa drop
9.6 moa drift
1031 fps. (Subsonic) 2721 yard supersonic limit
566 ft/lbs

now i realize these are extreme ranges and many will never shoot to these ranges but shows the comparision. The lead core has a nearly 16 moa advantage in drop. Drift is nearly two moa less for the lead. Velocity, the solid has dropped well below supersonic velocity, in spite of what is claimed these days, you will experience some level of instability and inconsistency with ANY bullet at this point. The lead is still fully supersonic and consistent and predictable....

now, some will say the BC for the solid is much more consistent bullet to bullet and there may be something to that at ranges of 2k and past but inside that, if you sort your bullets properly, this will really not be an issue.

then lets get to the real kicker here. Say you get your rifle finished, start doing load development and accuracy testing and the rifle simply DOES NOT LIKE the 245 gr berger or the 240 gr cutting edge....

well, with the 8.5 twist of the rifle shooting the 245 gr berger, you also have the option to try the 230 gr berger. However you also have the option to try the 230 gr hornady Atip (0.823 bc likely a bit exaggerated) or the 250 gr hornady Atip (0.878 bc, also likely a bit high). Or the 230 gr sierra mk (0.800 bc), or the Hammer 199 gr, or the Hammer 214 gr or the barnes 200 gr or 212 gr lrx. Not to Mention many others that could work very well.

with the rifle chambered for the cutting edge lazer, you could try a lighter lazer bullet for sure and likely find something that would work but that would be about all your options without recutting the throat of your rifle.

again, over the years, i have tested most of the new bullet designs that have come out over the past 18 years in my wildcats. I love the solid bullet designs, however, when bullet caliber is under 338, they simply CAN NOT compete ballistically with the best and many lead core bullet designs. You just can not get enough mass in the smaller caliber bullets with a solid design to get BC numbers up to compete with the lead core designs.

now the lead cores are not perfect either. They have more potential for bullet to bullet variation but that can largely be eliminated with sorting. They also can have bullet integrity issues. If the jacket to core bond is weakened, you will have issues but the bullet companies are getting this pretty well figured out for the super performance mags. Have tested a load of bullets for berger trying to destroy them in my wildcats!!

in the end, i much prefer the less finicky twist rates and higher bc potential with lead core bullets in sub 338 cal rifles compared to solids.
You covered the topic of sub338 bullets , lead core and solids FANTASTIC. thats what we have been considering all along . The deciding factor for me in building a gun for the 240 lazer is its terminal performance on long range one shot moose kills which have been outstanding with the lazer family of bullets . We like the 245 30cal and 195 eols 7mm (cost less ) and are easy to shoot well ( less fussy then the long cebs )
 

Fiftydriver

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Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
7,149
Location
Fort Shaw, Montana
You covered the topic of sub338 bullets , lead core and solids FANTASTIC. thats what we have been considering all along . The deciding factor for me in building a gun for the 240 lazer is its terminal performance on long range one shot moose kills which have been outstanding with the lazer family of bullets . We like the 245 30cal and 195 eols 7mm (cost less ) and are easy to shoot well ( less fussy then the long cebs )

Agreed. You should see the 300 class 338 and 400 gr class 375s on game like moose!! 😉. Moose do not seem over hard to kill but they can take alot of time to die and take off their feet. Elk however can be dead on their feet and if the adrenaline is pumping, you wont see any sign of mortality for miles..... thats why i like to take out big bones with big bullets!!
 

gnbruce

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
98
no hard real world numbers on a 28” pipe yet, educated guess, 3250-3300 fps. My new reamers that will be arriving hopefully in the next month or so will come with min length throats Designed for the bore rider bullet designs. Then for those that want to shoot conventional bullets will just use my throating reamers to cut throats to proper length for those bullets.

the extremely fast twists make me nervous with the cutting edge bullets. In my wildcats that tend to run on the outer limits of performance anyway, using an extremely fast twist will greatly magnify environmental day to day changes Compared to other rounds, for a big game rifle this is really not a concern because the goal is different.

however, care must still be taken to get good function over a wide range of temps. For example, if you have a 9 twist barrel and shooting a 245 gr berger at top end pressures when its 50 degrees out and then go out when its 95 degrees, you will see a pressure spike no matter what powders your using. Will it be dangerous, not unless your loading to red line pressures at 50 degrees.

however, take a 240 gr solid driven to max pressures in a 6 twist barrel, 33% steeper pitch then a 9 twist in same example and likely you will see dramatically more influence of the increased temps. Just the nature of these beasts.

i also am NOT a huge fan of any solid bullet design for long to extreme range performance in calibers smaller then 338. Now before everyone starts warming up the tar and plucking the chicken, let me explain why. There are several reasons but the majority of them limit you to very few bullet options.

again, everything i say is based on MY wildcat cartridges, not a blanket statement for everything so keep this in mind.

if you look at the CE lazer 240 gr 30 cal projo, they are recommending a 6 twist barrel. A 300 Raptor with a 6 twist will be able to shoot only one type of projo, that being a solid, so right there your limited to barnes, hammer or cutting edge for the main bullet options.

with the Lazer, you really should be running a min length throat set up for bore riders to get the max performance and accuracy out of these designs. Now you have just limited your choices to CE bullets only. If they shoot, great, but i have seen around 20% of extreme performance rifles have issues with these bullets.

even if your rifle shoots them well, very well, look at what you have, in my 300 Raptor, likely you will be seeing around 3300-3400 fps depending on barrel length used (30-34”). But your getting around .7 g1 bc or .358 g7 bc. At least thats what is advertised. Not bad at all but consider this, the berger 245 gr has a bc in the .810 g1 area.......

lets look at some vital numbers comparing the two:

muzzle energies will be very close to the same and with both having a 100 yard zero, lets see what they look like at 1000 yards: these numbers are at my elevation of 3400 ft, 10 mph full value wind

245 gr berger
14.9 moa drop
2.4 moa drift
2448 fps velocity
3260 ft/lbs energy

240 gr CE
15.4 moa drop
2.8 moa drift
2337 fps
2911 ft/lbs energy

not dramatically different, however the lead core bullet has already caught up and is pulling ahead of the solid, already a full 110 fps faster and 300 ft/lbs more energy

now at 2000 yards
245 gr berger
43.9 moa drop
5.1 moa drift
1689 fps
1552 ft/lbs

240 gr CE
47.8 moa drop
6.1 moa drift
1507 fps
1210 ft/lbs

this is where things really start to get different. Drop is 4 moa less with the lead bullet, thats 80” less drop. Even more critical drift is a full moa less. The retained velocity edge has now grown to over 180 fps and pushing 350 ft/lb advantage

now at 3000 yards
245 gr. Berger
94.5 moa drop
7.8 moa drift
1158 fps 3120 yard supersonic limit
730 ft/lbs

240 gr. CE
110.2 moa drop
9.6 moa drift
1031 fps. (Subsonic) 2721 yard supersonic limit
566 ft/lbs

now i realize these are extreme ranges and many will never shoot to these ranges but shows the comparision. The lead core has a nearly 16 moa advantage in drop. Drift is nearly two moa less for the lead. Velocity, the solid has dropped well below supersonic velocity, in spite of what is claimed these days, you will experience some level of instability and inconsistency with ANY bullet at this point. The lead is still fully supersonic and consistent and predictable....

now, some will say the BC for the solid is much more consistent bullet to bullet and there may be something to that at ranges of 2k and past but inside that, if you sort your bullets properly, this will really not be an issue.

then lets get to the real kicker here. Say you get your rifle finished, start doing load development and accuracy testing and the rifle simply DOES NOT LIKE the 245 gr berger or the 240 gr cutting edge....

well, with the 8.5 twist of the rifle shooting the 245 gr berger, you also have the option to try the 230 gr berger. However you also have the option to try the 230 gr hornady Atip (0.823 bc likely a bit exaggerated) or the 250 gr hornady Atip (0.878 bc, also likely a bit high). Or the 230 gr sierra mk (0.800 bc), or the Hammer 199 gr, or the Hammer 214 gr or the barnes 200 gr or 212 gr lrx. Not to Mention many others that could work very well.

with the rifle chambered for the cutting edge lazer, you could try a lighter lazer bullet for sure and likely find something that would work but that would be about all your options without recutting the throat of your rifle.

again, over the years, i have tested most of the new bullet designs that have come out over the past 18 years in my wildcats. I love the solid bullet designs, however, when bullet caliber is under 338, they simply CAN NOT compete ballistically with the best and many lead core bullet designs. You just can not get enough mass in the smaller caliber bullets with a solid design to get BC numbers up to compete with the lead core designs.

now the lead cores are not perfect either. They have more potential for bullet to bullet variation but that can largely be eliminated with sorting. They also can have bullet integrity issues. If the jacket to core bond is weakened, you will have issues but the bullet companies are getting this pretty well figured out for the super performance mags. Have tested a load of bullets for berger trying to destroy them in my wildcats!!

in the end, i much prefer the less finicky twist rates and higher bc potential with lead core bullets in sub 338 cal rifles compared to solids.
Have you shoot ceb lazers with a +p chamber ? if so what results did you have ? thanks Gary
 

Fiftydriver

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Joined
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Messages
7,149
Location
Fort Shaw, Montana
Have you shoot ceb lazers with a +p chamber ? if so what results did you have ? thanks Gary

i am not a fan of the +p throat designs. When Shawn Carlock was designing his, at the exact same time i was designing my hybrid throat design and testing it. We were doing thisR&D for different reasons, he was looking for performance increases, i was looking to find a way to get then new bullet designs to survive the launch velocities of my Allen Magnum wildcats. In the end, both designs are nearly identical even though theh were designed totally seperate from each other. I found the exact same performance gains as he did, and tested my design in many different calibers, however, in my testing, i found that with my wildcat designs, throat life was dramatically reduced and because of the design of the +p and hybrid throat designs, its often not practical to set a barrel back far enough to clean up the throat.

as such, i reported these test results and made the decision that i would not recommend these throat designs to customers for the sake of 100 fps at the cost of dramatically shortened barrel life.

since then there have been many heated debates on how these throats effect throat life, i stand solidly by my test results. For the CE Lazer projos, a min throat, bore rider design is absolutely best if driving a HEAVY Lazer to high velocity in a fast twist barrel. Unfortunately this limits the rifle one type of bullet.
i have found very mixed results with the CE bullets, rifles that like them love them, those that do not, can have serious issues. As such, have a hard time setting a rifle up for one bullet type....
 
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