Expander Ball?

[CaptnC]

Use or don't use?

I had conversation with a guy about Hornady's GMX solid bullets. He had shot the commercial loaded ammo and they were crimped with the GMX bullets and they shot great out of his gun. But he could never duplicate the accuracy with hand loads. He had told me he finally got them to shoot by crimping the neck but only had a few left by that time. He abandoned the bullet at that point.

I too had bought some and tried them in several different rifles without much luck.

I loaded some of the few I have left and removed the expander so the neck would be tighter...they shot very good compared to how they had before. I shot them out to 600yds yesterday while at the range.

So those bullets seem to like a tight neck.

Seems I've seen it mentioned that some don't use the expander ball or I missed something in some of the long winded threads we have here.

OLT...Lapua brass...my 6.5-284 barrel came with dies and brass. I have noticed the necks are still tight after firing. Most likely tight enough to hold a bullet still.

They do come annealed...is that a good test to see if you have properly annealed a neck?

Great brass...I now see why you guys like it so much.

 

[woods]

There are essentially 3 types of dies. You have the standard with the expander where the case body and neck is sized smaller and the neck is expanded back to a reasonable dimension with the expander ball when extracted back up through the neck

The second and probably what most use here is one of the bushing dies. They have different size bushings that you can buy to size the outside of the neck to a specific dimension. They usually come with an expander also but most remove the expander and use without. You can get a bushing die that sizes the case body also or get one that only sizes the neck. Best to get into outside neck turning if using a bushing die since the bushing will push all irregularities to the inside.

Then there is the collet die from Lee that size the outside of the neck onto a mandrel which is easily extracted from the neck without effort. This alleviates the 2 problems with expander ball dies, having to lube inside the neck and jerking the expander back through the neck which can destroy concentricity.

Personally I refuse to use and expander, they suck

But what concerns me is when you say that the necks are tight enough to hold a bullet after firing. This can cause issues with pressure as the neck is supposed to expand enough to allow easy egress of the bullet. A chamber neck that is pressing on the brass and binding the bullet is a no-no.

 

[bigedp51]

I polish my expanders, and use graphite to lube the inside of my case necks. And using a expander is not the end of the world like many people think.

Below is a brand new RCBS expander that badly needs polished.

Whidden custom dies have expanders and at the Whidden website they sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter to control neck tension.

And Redding recommends using the expander with their bushing dies if you do not neck turn your cases.

Bottom line, polish the expander and dry lube your case necks with powdered graphite and you will not have to "jerk" the expander through the neck.

Note, I wet tumble my cases and this removes the carbon from inside the case neck. And graphite powder is nothing more than very fine powdered carbon. And using a expander will smear a fresh coat of carbon inside the case neck. And the powdered graphite will also make the inside of the neck slicker than snot on a door knob.

 

[bigedp51]

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Some Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/132-faqs1

Question: Do I need to use the expander button that came with my Type "S" Die?

Answer: It is advisable to use an expander button to maintain consistent neck tension if the case necks have not been turned to a uniform wall thickness. However, the expander button can be replaced with the Decapping Pin Retainer (included with your Type "S" Die) if the user does not wish to use an expander button.

 

[L.Sherm]

I think alot of people have the bushing used with an expander wrong, the bushing with an expander is used just to undersize your brass enought so that the expander pulls through it sizes correctly or whatever inside dimension you want. Used with no more than .002 les then your loaded round it works the necks less than conventional expander only dies unless you have your die honed to fit a specific brass and expander. Off the shelf dies are made to fit mostly all brass so they tend to undersized the necks the are pretty tight when the expander is pulled back through. I size my brass exactly as biged does in my opionion if you anneal your brass often, lube your necks and use proper bushing a expander is fine. I don't like the irregularities pushed to the inside also. Most of my brass I don't neck turn a few wildcats that I neck down for I have to.

 

[bigedp51]

Redding bushing FAQ
"If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter."

Meaning there would be no advantage in using a bushing die with the average case with more than .002 neck thickness variations. I have Remington .223 cases with .009 thickness variations, and use them as blasting ammo in my AR15 rifle.

Bottom line, bushing dies work best with neck turned brass in tight neck chambers. And standard full length dies with a expander will work fine with average Remchester cases.

And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with full length non-bushing dies.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Bushing Selection
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
There has been some confusion regarding the correct diameter bushing that should be used with Redding Bushing Style Sizing Dies. The most common misconception is that the bushing diameter is determined by the neck diameter of fired cases or the neck diameter of the chamber that the reloaded ammunition will be fired in. The bushing diameter is related to the chamber neck diameter, but only indirectly, in that the loaded cartridges must have adequate clearance at the neck to allow the bullet to be released properly upon firing.*

The easiest way to determine the proper diameter bushing is to measure the neck diameter of several loaded or dummy cartridges with an accurate micrometer. (These dummy cartridges can be loaded with your old set of dies or a borrowed set.) Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet.

Another method of determining bushing size, is to measure the neck wall thickness of the cartridge cases with a ball type or tubing micrometer. Double this measurement and add the bullet diameter to calculate the neck diameter of a loaded cartridge. As above, subtract 0.001" from this figure to determine bushing size. This method is the least desirable of the two, as a ball micrometer is fairly expensive and more difficult to read consistently than a conventional micrometer.

If you're starting with new cases, the neck wall thickness can be determined as above with a ball micrometer, or you can seat boat-tail bullets in a few cases and measure their neck diameter. Generally, the neck diameter of new cases is small enough to hold a bullet without sizing. As a last resort, you can measure the neck wall thickness of the cases with a caliper. Be aware that you may not select the correct bushing on the first try when using a caliper to measure neck wall thickness, due to the reduced measuring accuracy of the caliper.

The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.

 

[1Moose]

I polish my expanders, and use graphite to lube the inside of my case necks. And using a expander is not the end of the world like many people think.

Below is a brand new RCBS expander that badly needs polished.

Whidden custom dies have expanders and at the Whidden website they sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter to control neck tension.

And Redding recommends using the expander with their bushing dies if you do not neck turn your cases.

Bottom line, polish the expander and dry lube your case necks with powdered graphite and you will not have to "jerk" the expander through the neck.

Note, I wet tumble my cases and this removes the carbon from inside the case neck. And graphite powder is nothing more than very fine powdered carbon. And using a expander will smear a fresh coat of carbon inside the case neck. And the powdered graphite will also make the inside of the neck slicker than snot on a door knob.

Bigedp51, what do you use to polish your expanders? I've used valve grinding compound on the inside of rough seating stems but wonder what you like.

Also, I noticed a thin copper "ring" on the largest portion of a carbide button I have for one Redding FL die set which I'd like to remove also.

 

[bigedp51]

I use "Model Master Hobby Sanding film" that you can find where plastic models are sold. Or very fine wet and dry sandpaper in hardware stores sold in packs from 150 grit to 3000 grit. And use the finer grit papers in the pack for polishing.

A little copper bore cleaner and the finer grit sand papers will remove the copper. "BUT" have fun trying to polish a carbide expander. You could try Mothers Mag polish for the final polishing.

 

[1Moose]

I use "Model Master Hobby Sanding film" that you can find where plastic models are sold. Or very fine wet and dry sandpaper in hardware stores sold in packs from 150 grit to 3000 grit. And use the finer grit papers in the pack for polishing.

A little copper bore cleaner and the finer grit sand papers will remove the copper. "BUT" have fun trying to polish a carbide expander.

Thanks for the tip for the standard expander. I'll settle for getting the copper off of the carbide button! Thx again.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I use the exact same method as Bigedp51 does, BUT instead of bushing dies, I use modified FL dies, custom mandrels and body dies. I also run graphite through my necks. I run neck tension from .0015"-.004" depending on barrel. I polish with 1200 grit wet/dry WD40 and spin up the expander rod in the lathe or drill press. I mic every couple of minutes until I get the size I want.
I was sick of donuts, so moved away from bushings.
My necks don't get moved more than .003" in any operation, all of my dies have had the necks honed and the expanders polished to the EXACT size I require.
Some of my ammo/barrels were once tight necked, running .0015"-.002" clearance, I found this too tight and I get better results with .003" and one barrel prefers .004" neck clearance. I still skim turn my necks, just for consistent wall thickness.

Cheers.

 

[CaptnC]

But what concerns me is when you say that the necks are tight enough to hold a bullet after firing. This can cause issues with pressure as the neck is supposed to expand enough to allow easy egress of the bullet. A chamber neck that is pressing on the brass and binding the bullet is a no-no.

The barrel I got for this build was a factory pull off from Savage.

I've been using a full length sizing die with the expander ball to size the Lapua brass. The only exception has been the 10 rounds I loaded the GMX bullets.

I also use the Imperial dry lube in my case necks. But still feel a fair amount of resistance on the expander. So I plan to polish all of them. I'm currently loading 5 different calibers, so I have a little work ahead of me.

I did some digging yesterday after I posted this and found that I've been reading too much without remembering enough. I was confusing the use of bushing dies with FL dies.