Emergency gear to keep in Back Pack

[Muddyboots]

Thanks for telling them CPR is useless in outback but my post ALSO stated BENEFIT from these courses at home.

CPR can also re-establish heart rhythm that may sustain until help arrives no matter where you are located. Not every hunter is hunting the Brooks Range so it has value.

 

[dfanonymous]

Thanks for telling them CPR is useless in outback but my post ALSO stated BENEFIT from these courses at home.

CPR can also re-establish heart rhythm that may sustain until help arrives no matter where you are located. Not every hunter is hunting the Brooks Range so it has value.

Because it is in the mountains…you welcome.

In the back country. Not on private property. Not while you still have cell signal. Aka still around society.

In the mountains you'll be stuck with no cell signal, no way of moving the person, probably no way of getting a helicopter in there, and the time it would take….you're going to be doing compressions the whole time? Also…the defibrillator is what can reestablish heart rhythm… 99% of the time….

 

[brcfo_outdoors]

If you have to give CPR at any distance from a vehicle in the back country, in a pair or less, that person is dead.

You can not drive and CPR, and CPR, especially without a defibrillator is a bandaid, to usually, a heart condition. If you're on top of a mountain miles away from a vehicle, that person is dead. If you carry a defibrillator in your pack, then you're not hunting, you're a mobile hospital.

There's the CPR crash course.

Because it is in the mountains…you welcome.

In the back country. Not on private property. Not while you still have cell signal. Aka still around society.

In the mountains you'll be stuck with no cell signal, no way of moving the person, probably no way of getting a helicopter in there, and the time it would take….you're going to be doing compressions the whole time? Also…the defibrillator is what can reestablish heart rhythm… 99% of the time….

You are not wrong about the value of an AED, but you are ignoring the value of CPR and how it improves survivability even on its own when applied immediately. Since cardiac arrest can be cause by anything from choking to drowning to anaphylaxis in addition to pre-existing heart conditions, there is a wide application for it. A reasonable and trained person is not going to do CPR indefinitely, part of the training is to reassess in regular intervals, not to mention the fact that single rescuer CPR is exhausting. You are not going to sit there for hours doing chest compressions in hope that a helicopter will show up because the patient will be brain dead long before that. You are going to take the ten seconds to assess whether the patient is pulseless, breathless, and unresponsive and then act. If I was in need of CPR, I would rather have someone attempt to save me than write me off simply because there wasn't an AED present. If someone does have a preexisting heart condition and chooses to carry an AED that their partner is trained on and proficient with (granted they are pretty straight forward with verbal and visual prompts), that is no less hunting than anything else.

 

[dfanonymous]

You are not wrong about the value of an AED, but you are ignoring the value of CPR and how it improves survivability even on its own when applied immediately. Since cardiac arrest can be cause by anything from choking to drowning to anaphylaxis in addition to pre-existing heart conditions, there is a wide application for it. A reasonable and trained person is not going to do CPR indefinitely, part of the training is to reassess in regular intervals, not to mention the fact that single rescuer CPR is exhausting. You are not going to sit there for hours doing chest compressions in hope that a helicopter will show up because the patient will be brain dead long before that. You are going to take the ten seconds to assess whether the patient is pulseless, breathless, and unresponsive and then act. If I was in need of CPR, I would rather have someone attempt to save me than write me off simply because there wasn't an AED present. If someone does have a preexisting heart condition and chooses to carry an AED that their partner is trained on and proficient with (granted they are pretty straight forward with verbal and visual prompts), that is no less hunting than anything else.

That's the problem. I question what a reasonably trained person is. Especially on here, where you can't teach old dogs new tricks. I have more experience in mountain medicine the average person and this thread is ridiculous. You don't need the house and the whole kitchen sink with you. If you're in the woods 2 ft from your house then this thread isn't for you.
If your right next to you car the whole time, then sure. I guess. If you're doing sustained hiking….no….

I agree with what you're saying.

You can try, there's no harm, but if we are talking about reality…..it's not going to help in most cases involving adults. So yes. You while you doing your thing…just know… there's an extremely large chance you're working on a dead man.

Especially since the benefits of compressions only are just "better than nothing…"
Like, not great chances, not absolute chances, not even 50/50 chances…

A LOW probability that compressions alone help. Compressions act as a heart beat, and breath acts as their breath to oxygenate the blood. If they went into cardiac arrest, you won't have access to lido, vasopressin, no crash cart, and again no one hikes with an AED in real life. Only on the internet.

In the example of the person who has a heart problem, hunting with a partner, is going to bring a AED, then they might as well bring nitro…because that's more useful then doing CPR in the backcountry. And a inreach. Or stay home…..

 

[brcfo_outdoors]

That's the problem. I question what a reasonably trained person is. Especially on here, where you can't teach old dogs new tricks. I have more experience in mountain medicine the average person and this thread is ridiculous. You don't need the house and the whole kitchen sink with you. If you're in the woods 2 ft from your house then this thread isn't for you.
If your right next to you car the whole time, then sure. I guess. If you're doing sustained hiking….no….

I agree with what you're saying.

You can try, there's no harm, but if we are talking about reality…..it's not going to help in most cases involving adults. So yes. You while you doing your thing…just know… there's an extremely large chance you're working on a dead man.

Especially since the benefits of compressions only are just "better than nothing…"
Like, not great chances, not absolute chances, not even 50/50 chances…

A LOW probability that compressions alone help. Compressions act as a heart beat, and breath acts as their breath to oxygenate the blood. If they went into cardiac arrest, you won't have access to lido, vasopressin, no crash cart, and again no one hikes with an AED in real life. Only on the internet.

In the example of the person who has a heart problem, hunting with a partner, is going to bring a AED, then they might as well bring nitro…because that's more useful then doing CPR in the backcountry. And a inreach. Or stay home…..

The original post in this thread simply said "in a back pack" as opposed to "backpacking" but I will agree it has gone off the rails a bit. Level of training is all relative, and I am sure there are people on this forum I wouldn't want to be 1000 yards from with a gun in their hands but I do feel it is misguided to assume that everyone on here is either geriatric or inept. That being said, people should know their own limits, health restrictions, and capabilities.

You are right, the survivability is still low regardless, but I feel it is better to have more people trained and educated than not, even about the fact that they may try and fail to save someone. I have two former coworkers who managed to save patients their first time ever doing CPR on a real person. I believe no AED was present for one but possibly both of those instances. Our current med instructor is a former PJ and worked as an EMT and said he has never done CPR on a patient that survived. It is what it is, but the current AHA BLS course does offer some other first aide training which could be valuable for hunters. I think raising the baseline is a good thing, and as @Muddyboots said, the benefits extend beyond hunting.

 

[dfanonymous]

The original post in this thread simply said "in a back pack" as opposed to "backpacking" but I will agree it has gone off the rails a bit. Level of training is all relative, and I am sure there are people on this forum I wouldn't want to be 1000 yards from with a gun in their hands but I do feel it is misguided to assume that everyone on here is either geriatric or inept. That being said, people should know their own limits, health restrictions, and capabilities.

You are right, the survivability is still low regardless, but I feel it is better to have more people trained and educated than not, even about the fact that they may try and fail to save someone. I have two former coworkers who managed to save patients their first time ever doing CPR on a real person. I believe no AED was present for one but possibly both of those instances. Our current med instructor is a former PJ and worked as an EMT and said he has never done CPR on a patient that survived. It is what it is, but the current AHA BLS course does offer some other first aide training which could be valuable for hunters. I think raising the baseline is a good thing, and as @Muddyboots said, the benefits extend beyond hunting.

Raising the baseline is good if it's realistic. The hero complex people have isn't a good thing. If you have the training then you already know at what point a lost cause is. Triage involves recognizing the same…if it hurts nothing then of course, you can try, but like I said, it's more beneficial to mentally prepare yourself.

Training: Non-actual 8 hour BLS course certainly is not training. The problem is the things I said also come from experience unfortunately. I've been to the same socm course as that PJ.

"Training" requires being very involved in what CPR is, its limits, and if you wish to help, training past its limitations, both for the first responder, and for medical staff. Even so, trained people are still idiots. Unfortunately, nothing really trumps experience. It's why they send us to live tissue labs before combat deployments.

Mountain medicine, is another issue. You need to be good at mountaineering before you can grasp the reality of how to navigate medical emergencies in those conditions. Part of being good at that means no one has to tell you to bring medications for your heart condition. Or that you shouldn't be able on that mountain in the first place. We use to call medical advice like that; a physical.

 

[Firedad]

I carry most of what was mentioned as a minimum but consider some of it as emergency as bringing a rain jacket. I do carry an ifak for emergencies though. Rolled gauze, 4x4 gauze, quick clot, tourniquet, SAM splint, Israeli bandage, trauma shears, coban, epi, Benadryl and ibuprofen.
CPR can save a life please always try and the AED might be worthless without CPR. Just saying, I don't carry an AED hunting, who owns one anyways?

 

[dfanonymous]

CPR can save a life please always try and the AED might be worthless without CPR. Just saying, I don't carry an AED hunting, who owns one anyways?

that changed my mind on the whole thing. Very informative.

 

[Firedad]

that changed my mind on the whole thing. Very informative.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that an AED alone can't correct the rhythm. Just that CPR can bring a patient back into a shockable rhythm. My experience has been mostly negative outcomes with very few positive ones but if I'm the one going down please try your best. That is all I ask

 

[chindits]

Fire starter kit (lighter and a couple cotton balls with petroleum jelly.
In Reach
Ibuprofen
Imodium
Expired July 1988, 18" braided suture
Duct tape on my trekking pole
Tenacious tape
Cordage
Improvise for anything else

 

[ntsqd]

I've mentioned this before and doing that raised a cry about it, but when I tried Vaseline and dryer link it would not light. I say try it at home before you count on it.

That would be a good idea for a lot of the things that you carry in your pack (not all, god forbid your need to use your CAT tourniquet or something like it at home!). Make sure they work before you might need them to work.

I've also mentioned in various threads like this where I had a brand name compass that indicated ~15° West of magnetic North. This wasn't a misaligned declination adjustment, this was the needle itself. No idea how it got that way or how long it had been that way. Only found it because I used it in an Orienteering class. My instructors were amazed, neither had ever seen that before and the second one didn't believe it until we set it on a wood table with a 1/2 dozen of the class loaners. So word to the wise, verify your compass. I'd say at least annually if you don't use it very often and less so if you do.

EDIT: Just saw Litehiker's suggestion to look up the Ten Essentials. +Eleventeen! Those will cover a lot of situations.

 

[Firedad]

The compass thing can happen at any time. You should always check equipment like that before heading out and relying on it. They do need to be calibrated. Especially if it's been near magnets from electronics. Even if it is calibrated, declination may need to be adjusted depending on where you are/going on the map. Probably an obvious but compass without a map is next to useless

 

[dfanonymous]

The compass thing can happen at any time. You should always check equipment like that before heading out and relying on it. They do need to be calibrated. Especially if it's been near magnets from electronics. Even if it is calibrated, declination may need to be adjusted depending on where you are/going on the map. Probably an obvious but compass without a map is next to useless

How do you calibrate the earths magnetic field. Some of non toy like compasses have declination adjustment on them.

The only compasses that needed to be calibrated are digital, and analog that are in certain planes and ships. If a compass is broke, or simply loses magnetism for whatever reason, then it's of no use unless it can be fixed or replaced.

Even so, say you have a particular place to go on a map full of terrrain. How do you get you bearing? Do you use grid north or magnetic north? Do you plot points, and have a protractor with the correct scale for your map?

Again, this thread is beyond the scope of the forum. Most people who know how to navigate like this aren't the ones getting into problems from lack preparedness or knowledge. Unless maybe we have some 1stLTs on here…

 

[Firedad]

Actually they do and if they are here asking questions they are smart enough to google how to recalibrate it. I don't think it's out of anyone's scope. You can magnetize a sewing needle right? Well by recalibrating I mean re-magnetize the needle in the compass to get it pointing to correct magnetic north direction. Without basic knowledge how to use these tools i agree would be some what if a lost cause but it's not rocket science.

I guess we have sort of high jacked the thread from the OPs actual question so I leave it at that. Anyone curious or have any questions I'd be happy to help them with the subject of map and compass or emergency medicine feel free to PM or start a thread for that purpose.