Elk arrived!!

rammac

Active Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
43
Location
SW Montana
It's not just the managers and rule makers, they respond to the political pressure that the voters apply - and voters are hunters.

I've been kicked off of a forum for telling an out of state hunter (a guy from Texas) that was guided by a couple of non-licensed friends that used a cell phone to text the location of a bull elk during a elk bow hunt in SW Montana, that it was illegal to use a cell phone to communicate about elk locations during the hunt. I was told that I was a jerk even after posting the Fish and Wildlife rules and other comments from Game Management. Not a single person on that forum agreed with me and all of them said that not only was I stupid but I was probably the worst human being in the world for attacking this poor guy for successfully dropping his first Montana Elk with a bow. As the out of state hunter said, I was pizzing in his Cheerios. It didn't matter that he poached that elk, it didn't matter that his two Montana buddies helped him do it, nobody stopped to think that this guy just used three sets of eyes and an electronic means of communication and stole a resource from other hunters that were in the field, working their backsides off to follow the rules.

I've had arguments on hunting forums about corner crossing laws, some even said that we needed to change private property laws so that out of state hunters could cross private property where ever they wanted so that they could access public lands. One guy told me that he lived in Montana and always corner crossed and that anybody could do it because the Law Enforcement wouldn't do anything about it because the County Attorney would not take the case. I was told I was a jerk when I challenged the guy to come to my property and trespass and I'll call the Sheriff to have him cited.

Even this forum with the idea of "Long Range Hunting" is part of the problem. You get novices that don't have any idea what they are doing, shooting at over 300 yards at elk and deer and I'd bet that most make bad hits on an animal without even realizing it, they think that they've just missed the shot. I've done enough long range work over the years (20 years in the Marine Corps and involved in shooting since the early 1970's) to know that long range hunting isn't the same as shooting at paper. As soon as you open a conversation about hunting *Rule 1 Violation*s and a hunter's responsibility is toward the animal you get ridiculed and shouted down. You are told that you don't have any right to push your *Rule 1 Violation*s on others. I see lame statements all the time about how they missed the animal with their first, second, third or whatever shot but it was OK because they were sure that they didn't hit the animal - how the heck would you know. Anybody that has shot any living creature at long range (I'm talking about 600 yards or more) knows that it's hard to tell if you've hit the animal. Very seldom does a living thing react to a gun shot at that kind of range unless it's a very large caliber bullet with lots of energy - and nowadays everybody uses a super whiz-bang 6.5 something and claims that it's enough gun to make an *Rule 1 Violation*al kill at 1000 yards on anything with four legs.

So yes, it's a combination of greed, stupidity, and arrogance that has caused a terrible impact on the animals and yes, we should all get involved in finding a good solution but don't forget that we are part of the problem too and we need to check our moral compass and make sure that we aren't doing unnecessary things just so we can brag about the kill we made.
 

RockyMtnMT

Official LRH Sponsor
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
5,542
Location
Montana
@bigngreen

I was there for the opener last fall. Never again. Made me sick and embarrassed to call myself a Hunter. No matter where I hiked there was an atv there ahead of me. Every road had dozens of rigs running them all day long. If a herd of elk stepped off the private land there were gun shots in every direction. The small two lane hwy near where we were hunting had MT hwy patrol cruising it for traffic violations due to the massive amount of hunters using it. Never in my life did I think this was possible.

Limited draw is the only answer along with heavy fines for motorized vehicle use in unauthorized areas.
 

rammac

Active Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
43
Location
SW Montana
You guys better think twice before recommending limited draw. I've lived in Arizona and Utah and in both states it's almost impossible to even get an elk tag in a good hunting area, those states are why I use General Hunt areas on Public Lands, I got used to only being able to hunt elk and deer that way. Limited draws always become so competitive that eventually the average guy wont get drawn but about once every dozen years or so.

Personally I'll never support a limited draw, I like being able to hunt every year, even if it is on public land. The best way to help the problem is to report poachers, even family or friends that claim they only violated the rules because nobody really cares anyway. We also need to actually go the game management public meetings (like some here have mentioned) and voice our opinions on management ideas. I do support cutting down on the access roads and I support the idea of reducing the number of out of state hunters. Both these things will make resident hunters pay more and work harder but I don't mind that idea if it will help.
 

Ross1147

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
Messages
134
Location
Florida
So, been following this tread and it’s just disheartening. I was born and raised in California (grew up farming driving tractors hunting and fishing every chance I got) and my family has been hunting WY since the mid 90s or so. I left California in 01 and have lived all across the US. I’ve had the pleasure of hunting giant Whitetail in the Midwest, hunting Sitka in Maryland, to hunting small southern whitetail in Florida and Southern Alabama. My heart always pulls me back to the western states though. I was blessed enough back in 2016 to hunt CA in a decent zone in Modoc county and killed the biggest buck of my life 6 miles back in the wilderness. But chances are I’ll never be able to hunt that area again in my life due to limited quota

The last time I traveled to WY to hunt was in 2015. We were deer hunting (I’ve never elk hunted) and the sheer amount of elk hunters in the area we were hunting was insane. Early opening morning my dad and I had a decent 5x5 come by us with 3 cows in tow. They walked 50 yds from us and went into some timber. About 20 minutes later a truck came flying up the road and asked if we saw the bull and asked where he went. We just pointed toward the timber and 3 guys jumped out and ran into it. Well, about an hour later we were down at the bottom of the timber strip and we saw the bull and 3 cows come busting out and take off running perpendicular to the ridge line. I was waiting for a shot but it never came. He made it about 3 ridges over into a huge pocket of timber without a single shot. Just about then 2 pickup trucks with 4 people in the back each come flying down the road in chase of them. Poor things were gettin ran ragged. These were WY residents and not out of staters.

What I’ve noticed about a lot of out of state hunters, my family included (promise never me), is that they refuse to go home empty handed. If they’ve spent XXX dollars on the trip then they’re going home with something. So on the last day some little 12” forky hits the dirt. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll shoot a small buck where warranted (Florida and Southern California) but in the land of giants don’t shoot a baby because you couldn’t find a big one. That ensures there won’t be a big one in the future now!

I currently have points in MT and WY for elk. I’ve never hunted elk and it’s on my bucket list. I really hope I’m not SOL when it comes to cashing in my points.
 

L.Sherm

Well-Known Member
LRH Team Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,322
A friend of mine made a statement about 15 years ago " PEOPLE ARE THE WORST POLLUTION THERE IS" and he was referring to exactly what bigngreen was talking about.
 

L.Sherm

Well-Known Member
LRH Team Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,322
We cant blame all these problems on NR hunters either, I remember wasnt to many years ago montana didnt even sell out all our NR tags. Our population has exploded in the last 5 or 6 years so I bet our now " resident " hunters are the biggest problem. Back in 91 when I moved to Kalispell there seemed like there was a dog in the back of every pickup along with a rifle in the rack in the back window and everybody waved at you when you passed them. Now you dont dare leave a rifle in your vehicle or it will get the window broke and stolen, the only wave you get is the middle finger and driving is just like the big city tailgating, cutting you off, pulling out in front of you, ect.
My personal feeling is people move here and bring there bad habits with them.
 

bigngreen

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
7,867
Location
SW Montana
This is another issue. This makes me HOT!!! FWP over sold the NR licence's by at least 3000 last year one dealer told me. I was talking with a good friend over in the Bozo direction and he said the game will never recover after what the MSU students did last year!!
Screenshot_20200217-081636.png
 

wapitiaddict

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
81
Location
Idaho
Can
You guys better think twice before recommending limited draw. I've lived in Arizona and Utah and in both states it's almost impossible to even get an elk tag in a good hunting area, those states are why I use General Hunt areas on Public Lands, I got used to only being able to hunt elk and deer that way. Limited draws always become so competitive that eventually the average guy wont get drawn but about once every dozen years or so.

Personally I'll never support a limited draw, I like being able to hunt every year, even if it is on public land. The best way to help the problem is to report poachers, even family or friends that claim they only violated the rules because nobody really cares anyway. We also need to actually go the game management public meetings (like some here have mentioned) and voice our opinions on management ideas. I do support cutting down on the access roads and I support the idea of reducing the number of out of state hunters. Both these things will make resident hunters pay more and work harder but I don't mind that idea if it will help.
I agree. Limited entry only is horrible.
1) Update and improve management practices.
2) Get predators such as wolves, lions, and grizzlies under check.
3) More game wardens to properly patrol, with harsher penalties for hunting violators. 4) And good hunters need to stand up to bad hunters
 

lilharcher

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
816
Location
So Cal
We cant blame all these problems on NR hunters either, I remember wasnt to many years ago montana didnt even sell out all our NR tags. Our population has exploded in the last 5 or 6 years so I bet our now " resident " hunters are the biggest problem. Back in 91 when I moved to Kalispell there seemed like there was a dog in the back of every pickup along with a rifle in the rack in the back window and everybody waved at you when you passed them. Now you dont dare leave a rifle in your vehicle or it will get the window broke and stolen, the only wave you get is the middle finger and driving is just like the big city tailgating, cutting you off, pulling out in front of you, ect.
My personal feeling is people move here and bring there bad habits with them.
Most of this makes sense, but I bet local people’s habits have changed as well, and the children of locals have certainly changed..........pres Trump has done some great things for hunters, but one thing he isn’t doing us any favors with, is his treatment of other humans, and always talking down to people, which sends a horrible example to our young people, who in turn, think they are entitled to do the same.
 

wapitiaddict

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
81
Location
Idaho
Here's an idea I've had for a few years to increase patrolling. I'm sure there are plenty of pitfalls, mostly political, but maybe it could work.....

Allow certain amount of hunters to become certified (go through a course, with continuing education each year) to become public servants that could issue simple citations. This would be a volunteer only, no pay type of thing. Fellow hunters just donating some time, covering their own cost of vehicles and gas, etc. Even if it is as simple as having these guys go around to hunting camps checking licenses and tags. Monitoring certain trails that are being illegally used by ATVs, etc.

This would increase patrolling at no cost to other hunters or agencies. The power given to these volunteers would be limited to certain things to avoid abuse of power. But these small and basic tasks are what consumes a lot of time and prevents wardens from doing bigger and more important things.
Who would volunteer to do this at no pay? I think there are plenty who would volunteer a weekend or two during the year in order to preserve hunting quality for them and generations to come. I'll be the first to sign up.

Another option is a public Neighborhood Watch type program. Hunters join public watch groups in the areas they hunt. the counties or fish and game allow them to put up some signs that the area has a Hunters Watch program etc.

These are all very rough ideas. But ultimately, I think in the end no government ran agency is going to be the answer. Its going to fall on the good hunters to push out the bad.
 

Pinoniper

Active Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
44
Give wildlife management the respect they deserve; treat them like the law enforcement they are and fund them properly. The wildlife belongs to everybody and everybody should pay to protect the asset.
 

North Idaho Hunter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
986
Who would’ve thought a simple post of elk numbers would turn a downward spiral into e t h i c s , politics and religion! Com’on fellas!
 

bigngreen

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
7,867
Location
SW Montana
Who would’ve thought a simple post of elk numbers would turn a downward spiral into e t h i c s , politics and religion! Com’on fellas!
I've seen nothing wrong here, we are going to rub up on some subjects just because to have a complete conversation about what's happening with differing views, so far this has been an excellent thread IMO, guys are bring opinions rationally and fairly respectfully, it's bound to get a little hot but if this subject doesn't have us steamed I'm afraid for the future opportunities of our kids and grandkids, either we do work and have the hard conversations or we hand over our outdoor legacy to those who wish our life style would be wiped out.
 

Latest Classifieds

Nightforce has great tracking capabilities, they are rugged, a bunch of elevation, holds zero forever, and reticles are designed for long range shooting. So if you are looking to shoot long distances constantly, then you need a scope that can take the abuse. -- gilmillan1


Culture Of Excellence At Nightforce Optics
By Len Backus

A high level of quality both in production and in service. Read More


Nightforce is such a solid combo of reticle, available elevation, glass that is good enough to shoot at the longest range you can dial. Nightforce has bullet proof construction that can handle the incidental horse rolling or some other rodeo action. -- bigngreen


Nightforce ATACR Scope Review
By Jeff Brozovich

The new NightForce ATACR is for sure a top choice for any long range shooter. Read More


The total package. Nightforce is the best I have used as far as turret feel and solid detents. I have never had one that didn't track right on and always return to zero. Nightforce NXS is the best value for everything I need. -- Broz


Nightforce Velocity 1000 Reticle Review
By Scott Shreve

I think Nightforce knocked it outta the park with this reticle! Read More

NightForce


Top