Dents/Crimp on shoulder cause?

[MNbogboy]

Ok back to this topic. This whole deal has turned into a giant ball of confusion for me but also a lot of good info came out of this thread for rookies like me.

A little more background, my father in law was given this rifle, brass, and the dies from his uncle. So I think this turned into the telephone game.

Now my father in law is telling me the brass may already be fire formed. So I have a couple new questions:

1- What is a sure fire way for me to know if it has been fire formed? Are there certain areas on the case I can measure that would be a tell tale?

2-If it is already fire formed, I am assuming I was getting these dents because the die was set wrong and I was crushing the shoulder. What is the appropriate method for setting the die up and making sure the case fits the chamber right?

Side note I just measure the neck opening on a couple of these fired cases at 6.90mm for what that's worth.

Another test you might do is to try and chamber one of the fired cases (wipe it clean first - no oil). If it chambers normally or maybe a little stiff then remove it and completely color it with a "sharpie". Chamber it again, open close the bolt a couple of times, remove it and see if the Sharpie had been rubbed off on most areas and "corners" of the shoulder area.
If it appears that it was fireformed in that chamber it will probably be obvious by the wear marks on the coloring.

Clean and lube the same case. Remove the decapper/expander from the die. Back the die out about one full turn from touching the shell holder. Run the case into the die a little at a time (1/16th turn) until resistance is felt. Try it in the chamber again. Cases normally get longer as they are squeezed in a die. It may now NOT fit. Run the case into the die about 1/16 turn per try until the case does fit. At this point you are close (one direction or the other).
Obviously if the case dents reappear before the case fits then there is a problem between the chamber/die pair. If not, fine tuning can be done to your "bump" length (another search for you).
Note: if all works after you reinstall the decapper/expander on the RCBS die there may also be a little more adjustment required for desirable case fit.

Hope you gain progress on this problem,
Randy

 

[GLTaylor]

Tim w thanks for your help. Nobody stocks 6.5-06 AI dies. They are custom order from both rcbs and redding. Both ask to allow 14-16 weeks for delivery. Cost is high. Whidden also makes dies either from the cartridge drawing or 3 pieces of fired brass.
That's one of the wonderful things about shooting wildcat cartridges!

 

[huntoregon]

Another test you might do is to try and chamber one of the fired cases (wipe it clean first - no oil). If it chambers normally or maybe a little stiff then remove it and completely color it with a "sharpie". Chamber it again, open close the bolt a couple of times, remove it and see if the Sharpie had been rubbed off on most areas and "corners" of the shoulder area.
If it appears that it was fireformed in that chamber it will probably be obvious by the wear marks on the coloring.

Clean and lube the same case. Remove the decapper/expander from the die. Back the die out about one full turn from touching the shell holder. Run the case into the die a little at a time (1/16th turn) until resistance is felt. Try it in the chamber again. Cases normally get longer as they are squeezed in a die. It may now NOT fit. Run the case into the die about 1/16 turn per try until the case does fit. At this point you are close (one direction or the other).
Obviously if the case dents reappear before the case fits then there is a problem between the chamber/die pair. If not, fine tuning can be done to your "bump" length (another search for you).
Note: if all works after you reinstall the decapper/expander on the RCBS die there may also be a little more adjustment required for desirable case fit.

Hope you gain progress on this problem,
Randy

I just colored one of the cases with a sharpie and it doesn't appear to wear much off after opening and closing the bolt several times.

Also I found a drawing of a 6.5-06AI reamer, and the measurement of this brass seem to mirror the chamber reamer drawing dimensions.

Would it be crazy to load a couple rounds and try firing them without being certain this brass was fire formed in this rifle? I am fairly confident they were fire formed in a 6.5-06 just not sure it was this exact rifle.

 

[GLTaylor]

If the brass you have is 6.5-06 AI and it closes comfortably in your chamber, with no wear or scraping on the brass, I would still seat your bullet to touch the lands. Use a mid-range load for the 6.5-06 and fire form it to your chamber. Chamber reamers/chambers for wildcat cartridges DO vary somewhat. Fire a couple and compare the shoulder length of your fired case in your chamber to the other brass you have. Hopefully the brass you have is from your chamber. If not, it may be a little shorter (no evidence of wear when you colored the cases with a sharpie and cycled them through your chamber).

 

[MNbogboy]

I just colored one of the cases with a sharpie and it doesn't appear to wear much off after opening and closing the bolt several times.

Also I found a drawing of a 6.5-06AI reamer, and the measurement of this brass seem to mirror the chamber reamer drawing dimensions.

Would it be crazy to load a couple rounds and try firing them without being certain this brass was fire formed in this rifle? I am fairly confident they were fire formed in a 6.5-06 just not sure it was this exact rifle.

Another test you might make would be to layer 1 to 4 layers of scotch tape on the head of a fired case. Trim them tight to the rim with scissors.
With one or two layers the bolt will probably close but with some resistance. With 3, 4 or more layers the bolt should not close easily or at all.
This may tell you with some confidence that the brass in question may have indeed been fired in that chamber.
It may also tell you that a loose fit (3 or more layers close easily) that it may be wise to "jam" the bullets as GLTaylor mentioned above to control the headspace as you fireform them to your chamber.
The purpose of this "tape" test is in absence of other measuring equipment to help verify a safe condition before firing. Household "Scotch" brand tape is approximately .002" thick.

 

[GLTaylor]

Excellent idea and suggestion.
Huntoregon, I assume you have a comparator for your micrometer so you can measure the shoulder to case head length fo a 40° ackley shouldered cartridge?

 

[huntoregon]

Another test you might make would be to layer 1 to 4 layers of scotch tape on the head of a fired case. Trim them tight to the rim with scissors.
With one or two layers the bolt will probably close but with some resistance. With 3, 4 or more layers the bolt should not close easily or at all.
This may tell you with some confidence that the brass in question may have indeed been fired in that chamber.
It may also tell you that a loose fit (3 or more layers close easily) that it may be wise to "jam" the bullets as GLTaylor mentioned above to control the headspace as you fireform them to your chamber.
The purpose of this "tape" test is in absence of other measuring equipment to help verify a safe condition before firing. Household "Scotch" brand tape is approximately .002" thick.

So just getting back to messing with this rifle. A fired case will not even allow me to close the bolt with no tape at all. The brass that I ran through the sizing die fit no problem.

 

[huntoregon]

Also, since the bolt wouldn't close on a fired case, for curiosity I tried it on the one piece I sized and colored with the sharpie.

1 layer of tape felt no resistance
2 layers was noticeable but was able to close
3 layers was a bunch of resistance and had to force the bolt shut.

Would this be acceptable to run?

 

[MNbogboy]

Without reading all posts again, if my memory serves me, there was a question if the brass you got was even fired in the same chamber. Your test answers that. It in all likely hood was not fired in your chamber.

Does sizing it change its dimensions very much?
Try the tape test on your sized cases. Should have the same results. If one or two tape layers tighten it up and 3 or 4 is a no go, then you are probably good to go by sizing the brass from another chamber. Can you post pictures of the old brass and what it looks like after sizing?

I would serve you well to get an experienced gunsmith to also verify.

Keep us posted.

 

[MNbogboy]

I was posting while you made your last post.
You are probably good like you said but if you adjust your die out a little, you can probably make a hair tighter fit. Closing lightly snug on 1 layer is close to ideal, 2 is getting a little loose but 3 or 4 normally should normally be a no go.

Sounds like you are getting close.
Fyi: 1 full turn on a 7/8-14 die is about .072, so you are looking for somewhere around 1/24 of a turn on the die lock ring.

Hope this all makes sense. Good luck and don't be afraid to ask . There are a lot of good experienced guys on here.

 

[shortgrass]

When I neck up or neck down I never use once fired brass, I always use new,,,,,,, and I prefer to neck down rather than up. I use new brass if I'm going to fire form to Ackley Improved, also. I have had and load for a 6.5/06 for over 25 yrs and never had any trouble necking down new .270 win to 6.5, check the neck wall thickness, ream if needed, and loading a 6.5mm bullet and firing it. This is NOT complicated at all! Just make sure your loaded rounds have a "crush fit" in the Ackley Improved chamber before firing.

 

[shortgrass]

When you neck down, check the OAL of the necked down case, too. Even if it is within spec I'll trim to square up the case mouths and de-burr inside and out. Using fired brass just to save a few just creates problems that could easily be avoided. Neck diameter of the loaded round, case length, crush fit in the Ackley chamber,,,,,, works every time, even for us mentally challenged types..

 

[GLTaylor]

Based upon your results, the brass was not fired in your chamber. It is obviously longer than your chamber. If you have to push the shoulders back 4-5 thousandths (or more) I'm not sure that is a good idea. Might be wiser (and safer) to get new brass and form it to your chamber. You are really stressing the brass a lot in moving it that much. Once you form it, (new) then anneal it and adjust your die for .002 shoulder bump. You should be good to go then.

 

[338 dude]

Also, since the bolt wouldn't close on a fired case, for curiosity I tried it on the one piece I sized and colored with the sharpie.

1 layer of tape felt no resistance
2 layers was noticeable but was able to close
3 layers was a bunch of resistance and had to force the bolt shut.

Would this be acceptable to run?

Sounds good to me it looks like it was fired in that chamber but not fully stretched?