Dents/Crimp on shoulder cause?

[GLTaylor]

Am I missing something here?
I have several AI rifles. The first step before doing any sizing is simply expand the neck to accept the 6.5 dia bullet. Seat the bullet to touch the rifling. This will hold the cartridge snugly in the chamber. Fireform the cartridge to create the 40 degree shoulder
It frequently takes 2 firings to completely form the shoulder.
Then, when you have properly formed brass, you can FL size as needed.

 

[Toolhand]

I don't have any AI chambered rifles but from my understanding you need to either fire form or use hydraulic dies to form the brass before you can use standard FL sizing dies.

 

[Legionnaire]

I'm with @GLTaylor. To turn a standard 6.5-06 case into an Ackley Improved case, you need to fire form the case to the Ackley chamber before FL resizing with an Ackley die.

You have a two-step process facing you, as the original brass isn't 6.5-06; it's 25-06. So the first step is, in essence, to neck up the 25-06 brass to take a 6.5 bullet; i.e., convert standard 25-06 brass into standard 6.5-06 brass. You can't do this in a 6.5-06 Ackley die. Best would be to expand the neck with a standard 6.5-06 FL or neck sizing die. Then build a fire-forming load that will convert the now-6.5-06 cartridge to the Ackley version when fired in the 6.5-06 Ackley chamber. Only then is your brass ready for FL sizing in an Ackley die.

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

I missed the AI part of his post OP needs to fire form. Or at the very least expand the necks before FL resizing. With the neck being much smaller than the FL die it's deforming the shoulder.

 

[Alibiiv]

I missed the AI part of his post OP needs to fire form. Or at the very least expand the necks before FL resizing. With the neck being much smaller than the FL die it's deforming the shoulder.l

If it were me I would be "first" annealing the cases before I did anything. I would then be using the full-length resizing die from the 6.5-06 die to expand the necks, and.....then seat the bullets. Or....if possible and available, anneal first and then expand the necks with a Sinclair mandrel tool and then full-length resize with the 6.5-06 die without the expander plug in. Also is the donor brass once-fired brass? From your photos it does appear to be an excessive lube problem, but you have written that you ran some cases through without lube. Are you using lube when you are sizing up the necks?

 

[Alibiiv]

I don't have any AI chambered rifles but from my understanding you need to either fire form or use hydraulic dies to form the brass before you can use standard FL sizing dies.

I full-length size new or once fired .270 Winchester brass through the .270 Ackley Improved die before I fire form. I also have a hydro form die that I will use to form brass, and...again full-length resize using the .270 AI die.

 

[Legionnaire]

I full-length size new or once fired .270 Winchester brass through the .270 Ackley Improved die before I fire form. I also have a hydro form die that I will use to form brass, and...again full-length resize using the .270 AI die.

I'm curious. What does this accomplish? An AI case has the taper blown out, so you're not sizing the case diameter, and the shoulder is blown forward. What does running a standard case through an AI die do?

I'm curious enough that I think I might try running a .243 Win case through a .243 AI FL die just to see.

 

[338 dude]

I did forget to mention the die and the rifle are Ackley Improved. Would that have anything to do with this problem? Like I said I have never loaded for anything but basic stuff.

If the brass is not specifically ackley I suspect that may be your problem I guess you would just neck it up with a mandrel and fire form it ?

 

[jpickar]

All you should do is expand the neck. Then load cartridge to fire form. The nosler reloading manual has a good write up on how to fire form under 280ai section. The neck/shoulder junction on an Ackley cartridge is 0.004 shorter than its parent cartridge. You are crushing the case which is why you have uniform dimping around the entire shoulder.

Also due to chamber/reamer/go-guage&no-go gauge tolerances i would start with new brass. If you have to use once fired, I would full length resize the once fired brass in a regular 25-06 die
Then expand it up to 6.5. Then fire form. Feel free to PM me and I'll give you my cell and I can walk you through it

 

[emp1953]

The pattern of those dents seems toooooo perfectly spaced, I've never had an over lubed case dent in such a perfect pattern, and I've done a lot of reloading for a lot of different calibers. I'd look for someone with the same caliber dies and ask them to size a couple and see what they get. When looking up inside the die with a flashlight do you see any foreign material on the die where it contacts the shoulder? Take a chopstick or something similar and rub it around inside the die where it contacts the shoulder, feel for any foreign material.

 

[freddiej]

HuntOregon, I knew I had seen that before. you are right it is not a lube issue. this is a forming process problem.
Do you have some old 30-06 brass to form 6.5-06 AI? if you push any 23 Degree shoulder case through an AI die it will make those ripples and they most likely will not come out without many firings. if have any 30-06 or 270 Win; you will find that this issue transcends lube. this is trying to setting a shoulder and reforming the brass at the same time.
what you experiencing is 3 issues combined.
the necks are stretching making excess brass on the shoulder (making it ripple badly), you most likely did not anneal the brass before this reforming, you are AI sizing a convential brass. you are asking the brass to do too much in one process.
#1 is you are using 25-06 brass. use 30-06 or 270 win brass and start with a 6.5-06 23 degree shoulder die then fire form into 6.5-06AI
#2 try going from 30-06 to 270 win, to 6.5-06 then fire form them to 6.5-06 AI.

 

[robert l]

I have no idea if I am pushing the necks back too far, like I said very inexperienced here. I very well could be. How do I determine if I am?

I have no idea what they were fired in.

I had the same problem and i found that i was pushing shoulder to far back. Readjusted for 1 thou and every thing was good.

 

[Barstooler]

I don't have any AI chambered rifles but from my understanding you need to either fire form or use hydraulic dies to form the brass before you can use standard FL sizing dies.

HuntOregon, I knew I had seen that before. you are right it is not a lube issue. this is a forming process problem.
Do you have some old 30-06 brass to form 6.5-06 AI? if you push any 23 Degree shoulder case through an AI die it will make those ripples and they most likely will not come out without many firings. if have any 30-06 or 270 Win; you will find that this issue transcends lube. this is trying to setting a shoulder and reforming the brass at the same time.
what you experiencing is 3 issues combined.
the necks are stretching making excess brass on the shoulder (making it ripple badly), you most likely did not anneal the brass before this reforming, you are AI sizing a convential brass. you are asking the brass to do too much in one process.
#1 is you are using 25-06 brass. use 30-06 or 270 win brass and start with a 6.5-06 23 degree shoulder die then fire form into 6.5-06AI
#2 try going from 30-06 to 270 win, to 6.5-06 then fire form them to 6.5-06 AI.

Been loading 6.5-06 AI for years. May I suggest:

25-06 brass is ok but don't FL resize. Just use expander ball in resizing die to neck up to 6.5 then neck up using expander ball again to 7mm. You now have a fat neck.
(The reason to not go from 25-06 to a 7mm neck is you will ruin some cases by doing so. Therefore go to 6.5 then 7mm. Or you can use 270 Winchester cases but they will need to be trimmed. Or if you neck down 30-06 cases you may need to ream the inside or turn the outside of the final necks)
So after you have that oversized / over caliber neck, go back to 6.5-06 die and carefully adjust the die down to resize the neck to create a false shoulder. Adjust die down repeatedly trying to close the bolt on the case until you can get the bolt to close on the case in the rifle. That is called a crush fit.
Seems like a lot is *** pain, but if you do several hundred cases at a time it is repeatable and fast.
So you now have a case that is head spaced in that rifle and you can fire form with either a normal 6.5-06 load or cream of wheat.
If you want to avoid barrel wear use COW

Do that by:
Priming the case
Add 14 grains of Unique powder
Top off with COW to the shoulder/neck junction
Put in a wad of toilet paper or cotton to hold everything in place
Then chamber and fire the round

You will have perfectly fire formed cases with no additional barrel wear

 

[Alibiiv]

I'm curious. What does this accomplish? An AI case has the taper blown out, so you're not sizing the case diameter, and the shoulder is blown forward. What does running a standard case through an AI die do?

I'm curious enough that I think I might try running a .243 Win case through a .243 AI FL die just to see.

What I have found is that the bolt closes

I'm curious. What does this accomplish? An AI case has the taper blown out, so you're not sizing the case diameter, and the shoulder is blown forward. What does running a standard case through an AI die do?

I'm curious enough that I think I might try running a .243 Win case through a .243 AI FL die just to see.

I've found that my bolt closes easier when I do this, at least in my rifle. Also my dies were blueprinted from my fired casings.