Dead soft brass!

[lancetkenyon]

How long were you keeping the brass in the flame? Because I get properly annealed brass anywhere from 4-6 seconds in a MAP gas flame while spinning them in a cordless drill and deep socket. I have done tens of thousands of cases this way.

 

[BoatTail]

BoatTail, I looked over the brass in the pic in detail and it looks like over half of the brass is actually ok and usable. A lot of it is actually annealed well. So the sky is not falling!
Seems you primed almost all of it before deciding that it was unusable. I would just sort thru it and cull the ones that are over annealed.
Others above are right, you can ruin brass just a easily and FASTER with an automated annealer.
If you cannot grasp the concepts. get the AMP machine.
If you decide to try one more time, I suggest watching the tutorials by AmmoSmith on Youtube. This is how I learned. He does a good job.

Will add that I only anneal about 50 cases at a time, two or three times a month. It is faster for me to just use the torch and drill. I can have them done before I could even get an auto annealer set up and calibrated for the cartridge I happen to be annealing at the time. If I was doing 500 pieces at a time, I would use another method.

Barrelnut,

Can you help me out? My difficulty is trying to determine which are ruined and which are ok. I believe that the ones with black are those that are bad as they experience burn off of materials. Is their another way to tell or am I off on this?

I haven't read the rest of the threads yet to see if someone else has a method to recover some of these yet.

 

[birdiemc]

This is an excellent article written using quality sources:
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

I was trying to remember where in the world I had read this article this afternoon when I was trying to find info on brass. You're right very good information.

 

[birdiemc]

Barrelnut,

Can you help me out? My difficulty is trying to determine which are ruined and which are ok. I believe that the ones with black are those that are bad as they experience burn off of materials. Is their another way to tell or am I off on this?

I haven't read the rest of the threads yet to see if someone else has a method to recover some of these yet.

Click on that article York posted, it has a lot of good info, but what you're most interested in would be his vice grips test to see if your brass is over annealed.
"You can gauge the softness to some degree by using the Vise-Grip "test" described above. If the case mouth doesn't spring back after being slightly deformed, the case is trash. Don't waste your time with it." Never done it myself, but worth a shot with a few of yours to see...especially if they were trash bound anyway

 

[BoatTail]

How long were you keeping the brass in the flame? Because I get properly annealed brass anywhere from 4-6 seconds in a MAP gas flame while spinning them in a cordless drill and deep socket. I have done tens of thousands of cases this way.

Lancetkenyon,

It was in there way too long and some cases more than that. Until the case neck/shoulder was glowing orange. I did not learn the timing info, templac, and proper color until after the mistake. It wasn't until someone showed on YouTube the proper way and wrong way where, using a commercial machine, I could see the little smoke comes off when the case was left too long in the flame and some of the metals that make up the copper in the case is burned off. Then it clicked. Since then I have read a ton of articles and watch another bunch of videos discussing and demonstrating the proper way.

Hopefully someone else can learn before making this mistake.

 

[BoatTail]

Thanks Birdiemc and York. Will do.

 

[birdiemc]

I'm interested in how it goes.

 

[misterc01]

Another two cents - I am getting ready to spend the $15.00 on the bits and pieces to build the dead-reliable hand-operated annealer. Look it up. Use it with or without Tempilac liquid. After a bit of research, the keys are heat, timing and color, whether you are using a hand or mechanized method to anneal. A machine has to be set up so the timing is right the same as if doing it by hand. Once the machine or your eye and hand are calibrated, the outcome is the same.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I did this several years ago myself. I realized the need to anneal and started hunting around for information on doing it by hand.
I decided to try it just based off of neck color as you heat...because it's so easy a cave man can do it. Right? So I too ruined a batch of brass albeit small (40 rounds) by over annealing.

I purchased a bottle of 750 degree tempilaq and have had zero problems since. Granted it's a PITA to get the burned tempilaq out of the inside of the neck after annealing.
IMO, if someone is gonna do it by hand get the tempilaq for God's sake. If you anneal enough brass to need a machine that you can preset, I'm happy for you!

 

[brotherbear67]

Until a couple months ago I had not heard of this. I start this thread in hopes of saving others from the trouble, confusion, wasted time trying to figure out what was wrong and cost of this mistake. While not an expert on this, I'm learning quickly and hope others will lend their expertise to help raise the awareness and knowledge of our forum members on this critical process.

Dead soft brass happens when we improperly over anneal the case shoulder and neck to try to reverse the impact of case hardening due to multiple firings or when a case is work hardened when converting a case from one cartridge to another.

I suggest we share with our Forum members (among other topics) what happens to the case when annealing is done wrong, the wrong and right way to anneal cases, the advantages of annealing, the dangers of improperly over annealing and perhaps discuss some of the commercial and self-made annealer /process options.
View attachment 124541
I'll start by showing a picture of my large pile of damaged cases from improper annealing. there are about 250 cases here at $73 per 25 cases for Nosler brass, that's a loss of $730. Because they are mixed the lost is probably closer to $500 to $600.

I did the same thing, only with 338 LM brass and wrecking 25-30 pcs. It really sucks when ya ruin brass and learn the hard way. I ended up buying tempilaq and reading a couple articles on accurate shooter to get it figured out. I saved up to buy an Annealeez and have been very satisfied with it. Still run the tempilaq on set up. Everyone on here has made a mistake or two during their "formative years" while learning the ins and outs of reloading. The guys that pound their chest and claim they've never screwed up, will eventually. Thanks for sharing and good luck.

 

[olyeller]

@BoatTail
The smoke you are seeing is the impurities being burned off, not losing some of the alloys like you are thinking.

Impurities are things like oil, wax, dirt, etc. The brass is still the same alloy unless you actually melt it to liquid form.

So salvage what brass you can like others have suggested and try again before you spend a lot of money on something you may never need. Read, then reread the 6mmbr.com article.

What you need to do is to take a piece of the salvaged brass between thumb and forefinger and roll it back and forth in a torch flame for less than a 10-count until you feel it getting uncomfortably warm, then drop it on a wet towel. Direct the flame at the base of the neck just ahead of the shoulder/neck joint. Hold the hottest part of the flame (the little bright blue point) about 1/4-1/2 inch from that joint and drop the case when it feels warm/uncomfortable. Remember, your goal it to heat the neck.

Doing this in a low-light area is helpful in the learning curve. The brass should be released when it just begins to turn a faint dull red, just when you can tell it is changing. It is hard to see when you are learning in a well-lit area. Tempilaq will help you learn also.

Depending on your attention, you will get the hang of it very quickly. Then you can graduate to a socket and drill if you like, or spend the money for an automated machine. The vast majority of shooters really have no need of such an extravagance.

 

[Rich Coyle]

If I had a 28 Nosler I give you a book for all those cases you're going to throw away and pay the freight.

 

[Pieter Willem Vorster]

Read this:

https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html

 

[Pieter Willem Vorster]

Important:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html