Cut rifling or button?
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Broz
Well-Known Member
I have both and I can't tell a difference in accuracy. The debate is huge but anymore I have no preferance. It is more about the smith, break in, and compoenents that I worry about.
Jeff
Jeff
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
well I hear the story all the time as to which is best. Personally, I can't see a lick of difference between them except for the price of several cases of beer. If you look at the equipment listings in the big benchrest shoots you see lots of cut barrels, but you also see more button barrels as winners. I don't think it's because they are better, but I do think the shooter was on his game that day.
You can do a serious engineering thesis on the subject, and each will have a plus and a minus about them. One relieves stress while cutting the metal, and the other adds a compressive stress to the metal due to shear force involved. Metalurgist will tell you the compressive stress is far better. Enough to matter? I doubt it. Then there is the accuracey factor (rifeling). One method uses a die blank (thats all the button really is) to broach the rifeling with one cut removing a very small amout. The other cuts one groove at a time. Everytime you enter the bore to make a cut (no matter how) you set yourself up for error, and this has to be taken into context. I seriously doubt there's one person on this board that could tell the difference between one type or the other with their group size. But if it matters much, I can safely tell you the barrels that have won the Olympics for at least the last twenty years were all button rifled. Why? I can't say, but that's a well known fact.
gary
You can do a serious engineering thesis on the subject, and each will have a plus and a minus about them. One relieves stress while cutting the metal, and the other adds a compressive stress to the metal due to shear force involved. Metalurgist will tell you the compressive stress is far better. Enough to matter? I doubt it. Then there is the accuracey factor (rifeling). One method uses a die blank (thats all the button really is) to broach the rifeling with one cut removing a very small amout. The other cuts one groove at a time. Everytime you enter the bore to make a cut (no matter how) you set yourself up for error, and this has to be taken into context. I seriously doubt there's one person on this board that could tell the difference between one type or the other with their group size. But if it matters much, I can safely tell you the barrels that have won the Olympics for at least the last twenty years were all button rifled. Why? I can't say, but that's a well known fact.
gary
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
We can argue all day about it as we have done many times in the past. None of it has changed the fact that both types when purchased from a quality manufacture are very accurate.
If 1 shooter recived one of each from a quality shop as a gift and had no idea which was cut and which was button pulled he sure as heck would'nt be able to figure it out by shooting them side by side.
If 1 shooter recived one of each from a quality shop as a gift and had no idea which was cut and which was button pulled he sure as heck would'nt be able to figure it out by shooting them side by side.
"One method uses a die blank (thats all the button really is) to broach the rifeling with one cut removing a very small amout."
We might just want to correct this..........Button rifling removes no metal. The button is harder than the barrel material and simply presses the rifling into the metal.
We might just want to correct this..........Button rifling removes no metal. The button is harder than the barrel material and simply presses the rifling into the metal.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
This is one of the best articles on barrels that I have seen !!!!
The only problem I have is that near the end It shifted to the opinion of someone that promotes
cut rifling and it lost some of its objectivness .
I have used and inspected both types and there performance and quality are solely dependent
The barrel maker . NOT THE TYPE OF RIFLING.
The article described the Pros and cons of all rifling methods. And If the barrel maker has his
act together he can take advantage of the good points and minimize the problems associated
with a process.
So in my opinion, One is as good as the other if done correctly.
No matter how a barrel is rifled occasionally an exceptional one comes along that is amazing.
J E CUSTOM
The only problem I have is that near the end It shifted to the opinion of someone that promotes
cut rifling and it lost some of its objectivness .
I have used and inspected both types and there performance and quality are solely dependent
The barrel maker . NOT THE TYPE OF RIFLING.
The article described the Pros and cons of all rifling methods. And If the barrel maker has his
act together he can take advantage of the good points and minimize the problems associated
with a process.
So in my opinion, One is as good as the other if done correctly.
No matter how a barrel is rifled occasionally an exceptional one comes along that is amazing.
J E CUSTOM
"The only problem I have is that near the end It shifted to the opinion of someone that promotes
cut rifling and it lost some of its objectivness ."
Please understand...Border Barrels makes both cut rifle barrels and button rifles barrels. After years of making both types, they do lean toward cut rifled barrels. Just like Kreiger, who makes both types, but leans towards the cut rifled type.
As you can see in the article, cut rifled barrels are not easy to make and the machinery to do it is just about none existent.
cut rifling and it lost some of its objectivness ."
Please understand...Border Barrels makes both cut rifle barrels and button rifles barrels. After years of making both types, they do lean toward cut rifled barrels. Just like Kreiger, who makes both types, but leans towards the cut rifled type.
As you can see in the article, cut rifled barrels are not easy to make and the machinery to do it is just about none existent.
Broz
Well-Known Member
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
For one thing, it is nearly impossible to correlate HUNTING 'accuracy' with benchrest group shooting. Point blank BR means ~21" straight taper, and longer range BR allows barrels that by themselves weigh more than many hunting guns..
In both cases, their barrels are fresh fouled and brought fully up to stable temps -with sighters.
So none of these comparisons relate to hunting barrel accuracy IMO.
Personally, I'm more comfortable with cut rifled barrels for medium to light contour hunting barrels(and I like Borders). They can be turned down well below BR profiles without mutating the bore dimensions, and every cut barrel I've used so far has provided stable POI from winter to summer conditions. This, added to the fact that they shoot as well in every other respect as buttoned barrels.
Two good button barrels I hold, definitely shift with temps, and could not be relied for hunting accuracy off season. They are good enough in season though..
By 'accuracy', I'm talking first shot POI w/resp to center of mark. Takes only one shot to define this, and it can change the whole ballgame here.
In both cases, their barrels are fresh fouled and brought fully up to stable temps -with sighters.
So none of these comparisons relate to hunting barrel accuracy IMO.
Personally, I'm more comfortable with cut rifled barrels for medium to light contour hunting barrels(and I like Borders). They can be turned down well below BR profiles without mutating the bore dimensions, and every cut barrel I've used so far has provided stable POI from winter to summer conditions. This, added to the fact that they shoot as well in every other respect as buttoned barrels.
Two good button barrels I hold, definitely shift with temps, and could not be relied for hunting accuracy off season. They are good enough in season though..
By 'accuracy', I'm talking first shot POI w/resp to center of mark. Takes only one shot to define this, and it can change the whole ballgame here.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
It has to remove metal. The tool pressure alone would make it nearly impossible to do unless it were something like an inch in diameter, and even then I'm not sure. A hammer forged barrel does not remove metal, and works off a mandrel or a male profile to form the rifeling.
gary
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
Sorry Tricky, the button removes no metal. It is called displacment.
screech
Well-Known Member
theres advantages to both. basically a button barrel is formed by first heat treating a barrel so that it hits a certain hardness so a button can be pulled through it. generally speaking about 28rockwell. If it is softer than they wont last long and they may be soft enough to be distorted via pressure. If they are to hard you cant pull or push a button through. It will either break the button or pull it off the shaft. I belive Hart is still a push button but not 100% sure. As far as I know the rest of the button boys are all pull.
After they are basically annealed they go through the drilling process. After they are drilled they get reamed. Depending on how the drill drills you may have to ream twice. After reaming some do a lap to help remove machining marks. Others move it straight into either a plating process or lubrication process. That allows you to pull a button through the barrel creating a lubrication.
After that they generally go into a stress relieve furnace and after that they go to lap. Your higher end manufacturers will then lap them. After lapping they go to contour, and after that they get checked via air guage and have maybe a minor lap put in them. after that they get polished and shipped.
cut rifle is real close to the same process but different. Some countour before they cut, and they cut the barrels instead of pull a button through it.
The nice thing is with a button rifled barrel is if the bore grows or shrinks at all the groove will still be a nominall size no matter what. With a cut barrel the groove can also shrink and grow with the bore because its single point cutting using the bore basically as a reference point.
As far as which is more acurate. Both make good barrels.
After they are basically annealed they go through the drilling process. After they are drilled they get reamed. Depending on how the drill drills you may have to ream twice. After reaming some do a lap to help remove machining marks. Others move it straight into either a plating process or lubrication process. That allows you to pull a button through the barrel creating a lubrication.
After that they generally go into a stress relieve furnace and after that they go to lap. Your higher end manufacturers will then lap them. After lapping they go to contour, and after that they get checked via air guage and have maybe a minor lap put in them. after that they get polished and shipped.
cut rifle is real close to the same process but different. Some countour before they cut, and they cut the barrels instead of pull a button through it.
The nice thing is with a button rifled barrel is if the bore grows or shrinks at all the groove will still be a nominall size no matter what. With a cut barrel the groove can also shrink and grow with the bore because its single point cutting using the bore basically as a reference point.
As far as which is more acurate. Both make good barrels.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I offer my apology for my error! I made two phone calls this morning, and do stand corrected. BUT! I'm now left with another thought. Most folks pull the die thru the barrel, but there are a small few that push the die thru the bore (who I don't know, but was informed of this). How would one push a die thru a barrel and keep it uniform? Looks like the tool pressure alone would cause catastropic events inside the bore.
Anyway for those who know, and for those who don't know. A guy named Boyer uses button rifled barrels from Shilen, and calls them "hummers!"
always learning!
gary
Anyway for those who know, and for those who don't know. A guy named Boyer uses button rifled barrels from Shilen, and calls them "hummers!"
always learning!
gary
