Cold bore mapping?

[shovelhead]

You're high left.... completely unacceptable!

IMO you can over clean a gun. My fclass rifle has 180+ (3 matches) down the tube and I might clean it before my next match, might not. If your ocd will not let you leave your barrel dirty then just clean out the carbon, try and leave the copper.

BTW, before the winds destroyed everyone my first 15shot 600yd round was 149 with 12x's. I have no idea how I dropped the point, thinking it was the primer b/c it wasn't even close. So I shot 12/15rds at ~0.5moa at 600 with a filthy barrel.

That's awesome! I can only hope to get to that point some day! Always shot a bunch, and loaded for years, but never to the precision that you have been.... Working on it per lots of great forum reading and suggestions from this site and the net in general.

 

[Mikecr]

Not cleaning is not the answer. We should put our guns away cleaner than we pulled them.
One solution is dry pre-fouling with tungsten disulphide WS2(what I do). I recently read where others have had good first shot into grouping results after use of BoreTech Eliminator for cleaning.
He might try this.

He should be able to clean completely(to white metal) & put his gun away for a season confident that junk will not migrate down into the chamber, action, bolt, trigger, bedding, and that he will not have to burn out the cleaning residue before reaching reliable POI.
I'm sure that's what he wants & needs.

 

[ohiohunter]

Who suggested storing it for a season dirty?

I've made my fair share of mistakes by shooting a clean bore during hunting season. I'd have to see this fowling solution first hand to put any trust in it.

 

[shovelhead]

I had only asked my close friend not to clean his gun .. 1 week..... until I could try some of the different suggestions everyone has given me on this matter. Believe me, I don't remotely claim to be very knowledgeable about precision shooting, and or the equipment. As soon as I can get some results good or bad I will definitely re-post. Thanks.

 

[rcoody]

my experience is barrels are different.

Some like it clean and accuracy starts to go away quickly at 20 or 25 rounds.

some don't settle down after cleaning for 5 shots and will stay the same clean or dirty

some barrels need to be warmed up to shoot good clean or dirty. My precision AR is that way.

most throw that first round out of normal grouping after cleaning and settle down after that.

On a hunting rifle that cold bore shot is all that really matters or at least it should be. When it gets close to hunting season I take my hunting rifle on every range session and only shoot that one shot. I am lucky. That rifle is very consistent with its cold bore shot.

I am a cleaner. Can't relax till the guns are clean after a range session. Grew up that way. My father and I bird hunted every chance we got. Always cleaned the guns after taking care of the dogs and cleaning the birds.

 

[elkaholic]

Hello members- I have been doing quite a bit of successful reloading on a close friends ne savage LRH in the 6.5x284. Lapua brass, Berger 140 VLDS, FEDERAL 215s, 58.2 grin. Of retumbo. 3050 fps. It is sub 1/2 Moa at 100, and still holding .75 out to 300... Redding comp. dies, and averaging 2th concentricity (all under 4th) measured on olgive with Sinclair gauge. Awesome.... Here's the issue I cannot get a cold clean or fouled to be on x until he gets 3down the barrel. So this is a hunting rig. The poi at 100 is always around 2 high and 2 right. 2nd shot moves roughly half 3rd shot in the 1" from the 4th on he can touch and or cover with dime. Is there anything on the bench I can do to correct this so it is either clean or fouled same poi. It really shoots like a dream and he's digging the accuracy. The scope is a viper pst. 6x24 ffp mil. Rad. Suggestions appreciated! Thanks

First of all, I always start the hunting season with a fouled barrel and do not clean it until season is over. Once I have determined my load and have everything dialed in, I shoot one shot each morning for at least 3 mornings at the same target to determine if the cold bore group is consistent. After the first shot, I then fire a follow up shot at a different target to determine where that group is in relation. I feel by doing this, I am ready for a first cold bore shot, and if need be, where to adjust for my second shot. This has worked well for me.......Rich

 

[Mikecr]

I agree with so much here -except the common implication of 'over cleaning'.
Yes, a gun typically needs to be prefouled for reliable POI. But we can apply controlled prefouling to clean bores, and this fouling in itself can be clean.

I've done this for decades.
Every year I head north for two solid weeks of spectacular GH hunting. I bring 50 rounds, and I typically toss ~40+ groundhog carcasses. Wasting ammo is not what I do here.
For the past ~10yrs I've pulled the same gun(my son's) out of the safe, clean & prefouled as I stored it from the previous year. I don't need to take any prefouling shots up there, the first will be as good as any. I don't clean for this 2wks/50shots, don't need to. But when I get back home, I'll clean the gun to better than new, dry burnish in the tungsten prefouling, set the gun in the safe, reload those cases, put em in the safe with the gun -ready for next year.
I could pull the gun right now and put a hole in a GH's head at 600yds. One shot.

'One shot' is important enough to me that it's one of my primary hunting rules:
-If I miss, it lives another day
along with:
-I clearly identify my target and backstop
-I don't throw hail marrys
-I don't load the gun until fully ready to kill something
-I respect the owner's property and potential concerns
-I only shoot at what I'm hunting
-If I don't see it dead in the hole, or toss it dead in the hole or fence line, regardless of blood & guts, it's a miss
-I don't bring my wife along

 

[shovelhead]

Mikecr- just dropped off Manners to my Smith..... Looks like I have a bunch more reading to do on cleaning , and burnishing. The rig I've been shooting only changes POI on a completely cleaned barrel. If I leave it from the last shooting session it puts it right in there. That happened to be a 18 yr old Remington that I had trued, restocked,trigger,and new bottom metal. It still has the same barrel, but always shot a minute with factory plastic stock with hand loads. Now it does do 3/4 or a it tighter on a good day from me. So I am eagerly awaiting my new gun (next week). Thanks

 

[Litehiker]

FEENIX,

Braggin' or complainin'? ;o)

 

[shovelhead]

Update- grey fox was correct on the action screws being 20"lbs.... So I suggested to set them both at 40" lbs. cold fouled barrel put the first shot dead center of centerline still 2" high. The great news it put them all there at 200 zero, and he was at 1" or slightly under that, and was stil pulling 1/2 Mao at 300. Needles to say he seemed VERY happy about the session. So I suggested clean it and give er the gas on a cold clean bore tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for all the suggestion and data!

Cory

 

[Litehiker]

POI CHANGE, COLD BORE SHOTS, CLEAN BORE SHOTS & BARREL STRESS

POI CHANGE can happen for several reasons (other than shooter error)
Barring moisture in the barrel, more than 10 F. temperature changes, ammunition lot differences, etc. then you may have a stressed barrel. Consumer testing for this is likely best done from a rifle clamp/cradle like a Lead Sled that holds the rifle in place so the only part of the rifle touched by the shooter is the trigger, and that always in a consistent, straight back direction.
EX. If your Clean Cold Bore AND Dirty Cold Bore shots are pretty much in the same POI while Warmup-up shots group differently, especially OFF VERTICAL AXIS, then your barrel could shift POI due to manufacturing stress in the barrel that appears once it gets warm.

The usual "cures" for this are either cryogenic treatment or a new barrel. I have a suspicion that Bartlein barrels may be so good because they test barrels for inherent stress and in some way can separate stressed barrels from the rest OR have discovered how to make "unstressed" barrels. This latter method may be the answer.