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Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by Guest, May 23, 2003.
[ 07-11-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]
“Foul-out” style copper remover
Radio Shack components needed;
1.5-12VDC/300mA Regulated AC-to-DC
Model: 273-1662 $14.99
"EIAJ" Adaptaplug Sets
Model: 273-1646 $4.69
Dual Mini Board
10-Amp Car Battery Clips one each of red and black
Panel-Mount Jack (make sure it fits one of your adaptaplug ends)
MSC Company components;
Large bore 10-24 3FT SS #316 Threaded Rod
item # 64815772 $3.05
Small Bore 6-32 3FT SS 18-8 Thread Rod
Item# 04355129 $1.29
Sinclair International components;
PG-X Chamber Plugs
Pick appropriate size $9.50
If you know about electricity then this shouldn’t be hard, I don’t know a whole lot about it and managed to get it to work.
Take the Dual mini board and break it in the middle, you’ll only need one end. The way this board works is you jump connections using smaller wire lengths. First examine the panel-mount jack and see how it needs to be solder onto the board and where the wires are going to be run, this is where your ac adaptaplug is going to plug in. Solder it to the board and run two wires to the other end of the board and solder them in. Cut two leads about 30 inches long, one red wire one black wire. Solder them to where you just soldered the leads from the panel-mount. Now if you know electronics you could put an led display on this thing and use it to measure the resistance of the fluid in the bore when it reaches a certain copper saturation level, I don’t, just run it for 10 minuets at a time and it is clean. On the ends of the leads solder the appropriate colored 10-amp battery clips on.
Drill the correct tap drill size hole in the end of whichever chamber plug you have making sure not to go completely through,and tap it, it should be straight too, but can be off center and off angle to some degree just make sure that when the threaded rod is installed it DOES NOT contact the bore surface as this will short the thing out.
Once you have the chamber plug tapped screw in the threaded rod and insert into rifle bore insert bolt and chamber the plug. You may need to coat the chamber plug in some of that tool handle stuff or wax or whatever so it does not contact the metal of the gun. Now you can if you wish cut to length the rod so that you don’t have 18 inches hanging out of your barrel. Make sure you leave enough on the muzzle end for the nut needed to tighten the threaded rod.
Fill bore with favorite copper removing solution.
Muzzle end of the barrel; leave enough rod so you can get a nut and a washer on it with a spacer that does not conduct electricity, wood, plastic. Drill the hole in the spacer and place over end of rod, place washer over end of rod, thread on nut and tighten somewhat. Don’t over tighten it and break the threaded rod, or break something else or whatever.
Plug in your ac adapter and plug the end into the panel mount thing. Clamp the black battery clamp on teh threaded rod and the red on the gun or barrel. Start off with 1.5 volts and see if the liquid starts to seep out of the nut on the muzzle end.
I always push it to 3.5 volts until I see it start to boil out then back it down to 1.5 volts. Make sure you do this in a well ventilated area and wrap a rag around the end of your barrel to catch any solution that may run down it.
Don’t leave it on for to long, I usually do it for 10 minuets at a time. The first time I used this was on a friends 300 Weatherby, he had never cleaned it. I examined it with a flexible bore scope that engine shop has and found extreme fouling so much so that for the first 6 inches or so of the bore you could see no lands of grooves. It took three 10 minute applications of this procedure and it was completely void of all copper by examining it with the bore scope once again.
It works and it is a hell of a lot cheaper than the “foul out” system.
S1, I also use the GM top engine cleaner. Works great.
Another money saver is to use concentrated Ammonia (no soap added) from a janitorial supply store. Cost me $14 Cdn/GALLON-anyone wants some. Basically, the same ingredient in copper solvents like Sweet's but much stronger. Dirt cheap and will not remove the moly layer in your barrel.
This stuff is very strong and should not be used indoors - you will quickly understand why. Since using this stuff, I don't need to use JB much anymore except when I want to lap the bore. The ammonia solution is so strong that it will remove copper even in a pitted WWII barrel right to bare metal.
You don't leave this stuff in the barrel for more then 5 min. Wipe it out with a clean patch and that's it. Use a light oil if living in high humid conditions-refer to S1's post.
I have compared this solution to every cleaner I have including Sweet's, Bore shine, Hoppes, A spray foam, and Barnes CR10.
I cleaned the barrel with the commercial solvents until the patches came out white. Then cleaned again with the ammonia.
The only one to not have copper removed with the Ammonia solution was Barnes CR10. All of the others still got blue patches. The worse one was Butch's bore shine and hoppes copper remover. Pretty much didn't take any copper out. Might work well in BR type barrels but not in production barrels.
I cut my own patches using cotton flannel sold at any fabric store. Basically, what we get when we buy those rather expensive bags. I use my wives quilting cutters and mat to cut the cloth into patches. Takes no time at all. You get a custom fit too.
With these changes, I have dropped my cost of cleaning by at least 75%. Of course, that just goes into more bullets/powder.
Thanks for sharing that info - very interesting to learn about the use of the products mentioned. You are much more practical and innovative than I am - matter of fact I have to admit to being spastic about putting anything except my "tried and true" gun-cleaning chemicals into my custom barrels.
We use a very similar cleaning regime as far as the patch count and brushing. I just might get really brave and try the auto-industry products, I sure cannot argue with what you are saying.
S1 ever use mercury out board engine fuel injector cleaner, called power tune ? ebb
Could you explain why the ammonia would work in the BR barrel but not the production barrel? Thanks, Chris
Could you explain this a little differently for the thick headed (me), I think you are saying the CR10 didn't work quite as well as the others, and that's my experience too.
The only one to not have copper removed with the Ammonia solution was Barnes CR10.
All of the others still got blue patches.
You went on here to say Butch's and Hoppe's were the worst though...
The worse one was Butch's bore shine and hoppes copper remover. Pretty much didn't take any copper out.
This here would make sense if you found that they were the least effective copper removers...
Might work well in BR type barrels but not in production barrels.
I think JB works better than them all though. Haven't used the High strength ammonia though, Sweets is about the best and highest strength stuff I've used. It's just a tad slower than JB in my experience.
One thing I'm convinced of is that Ammonia doesn't hurt your barrel no matter how long you leave it in the bore... I've heard of too many tests where absolutely no affect had taken place, and that was even using the pure stuff in one of them too. To each his own though.
I rate the copper removers like this, top to bottom, best to worst;
1. JB Bore Paste
2. Sweets 762
4. Remington Bore Cleaner
On a scale, how do you rate them Jerry?
Brent,I would throw wipe out and Bore Tech on top of that list somewhere...
S1, Being a lifetime AMSOIL dealer, I've found a few things they make that work fine for my rifles, I use their synthetic grease and Metal Protector, and they make an engine cleaner called 'Power Foam' that I bet would make an excellent bore cleaner for powder fouling, my cost is $3.25, for 18oz. can. And they're 5w-30w is fluid down to -60F. Although, I've been using Kroil after my cleaning regemine, always wiping with two clean patches before shooting, whats your feeling on Kroil as far as a lubricant/cleaner? Jay
To clarify for winmagman and brent, the CR10 is the best commerical copper solvent I have used. It was the only one that cleaned as thoroughly as the industrial strength ammonia.
The worse cleaners were the BBS and Hoppes copper solvent. These barely touched the copper in the bore. Low ammonia contents or no ammonia at all.
BR barrels are very smooth compared to production barrels. They foul a lot less so need less agressive cleaners. BBS and others like it work well in this environment.
Brent, ammonia from commercial solvents may not affect barrel steel because their concentrations are so low. CR10 will cause light surface "rust". The industrial ammonia will cause "rust" if left on. Just swab it through then wipe it out with dry patches - no problem. This stuff is as strong as you can buy without a lab coat and permits.
JB is a mechanical cleaner and works very well. I have used it for years as a lapping compound and to remove heavy fouling. Problem is that with JB, you will go back to bare metal and the moly layer will have to be rebuilt. Since I shoot moly, I want to avoid this.
I find the combo of GM engine cleaner/any powder solvent and the ammonia to accomplish the same thing and is less messy. I can stop cleaning at the moly layer.
Either way works. One is mechanical, the other is chemical. Take your pick.
Thanks for the clarification Jerry.
I wish I had the links to the threads over at benchrest.com that were discusing ammonia and it's "don't leave in the bore too long", some real interesting facts about ammonia and barrel steel interaction was layed out, not to mention the various tests by different guys that were performed... I wish my memory was better and I could tell you all about it, but it ain't.
Might find it with a search over there though...
Jerry, how do you moly coat your bullets/bore and what are the advantages/disadvantages you've noticed doing it?