CFE223 in cold weather??

[Teri Anne]

Don't know how temp sensitive it is since have not used it yet.
Just curious as to why the US government contracted with Hodgdon to produce this powder for military use in the 5.56, 7.62.
Yes it was made with ingredients to prevent "Coper Fouling", (CFE) but didn't Hodgdon and the US Military also think of use in environmental differences in temperature???

There are times when the US Military does not completely think things out. Back in the 60's and early 70's there was some ammunition that would experience 100 fps changes in velocity for every 10 degrees of temperature change. It's been a long time and as I remember the ammo was not long lived or widely used. While drops in temperature were troublesome, increases in temperature could be downright dangerous due to over pressure. There was actually one M-14 that blew apart on the range during a practice session. Fortunately nobody got injured. Sounds like this may be an issue with CFE 223 hopefully not to this extreme. I have a couple of pounds of it and have had problems trying to obtain and hold a zero with ammo loaded with it. Maybe temp fluctuations are the issue. Will require more experimentation.

 

[Rosebud]

I must say I've never known anyone having an issue with their .223s or .204 rugers up here in Saskatchewan either.

What I can say is that in real cold, big magnums with compressed loads of slow burning ball powder definitely should be loaded with magnum primers. That probably goes for all temps. I've had duds and worse…the dreaded "click-pause-kaboom". Don't care for that.

A lot of folk tho don't realize that for many applications magnum primers are totally unnecessary even in magnums.

Before the introduction of the big .378 wby in 1953 there were no magnum or standard primers. There were just primers. Federal invented the 215 due to ignition issues with that case and how slow burning the powders being used in it were.

But before that everything based on the .375 h and h including the weatherbys, as well as such monsters as the 416 rigby, the 404
Jeffrey, the nitro express rounds, and even the mighty 505 Gibbs were all touched off with what by todays standards were non-magnum primers.

You are correct Master Yoda!

 

[Rosebud]

There are times when the US Military does not completely think things out. Back in the 60's and early 70's there was some ammunition that would experience 100 fps changes in velocity for every 10 degrees of temperature change. It's been a long time and as I remember the ammo was not long lived or widely used. While drops in temperature were troublesome, increases in temperature could be downright dangerous due to over pressure. There was actually one M-14 that blew apart on the range during a practice session. Fortunately nobody got injured. Sounds like this may be an issue with CFE 223 hopefully not to this extreme. I have a couple of pounds of it and have had problems trying to obtain and hold a zero with ammo loaded with it. Maybe temp fluctuations are the issue. Will require more experimentation.

Military is in love with ball powder because it meters so smooth and loads fast so they can make millions of rounds as fast as possible. Most military grunts firing on full auto aren't concerned with half in groups. Just go bang.

 

[Calvin45]

You are correct Master Yoda!

Master Yoda! First time I've received such high praise haha. Of course this is all long before my time (born in 91, almost 40 years younger than those newfangled "magnum" primers ). But as with many of us here I'm weirdly hyper focused on all things related to this interest and, while I can't remember where the heck my keys are, I remember random tidbits of gun information i read when I was 11 haha.

Also speaking of '91. I saw a thing the other day reminding us that we are closer to the year 2050 than we are to 1990 and now I feel dizzy haha. The math does add up but somehow that can't be right!

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

So here's my experience with CFE223. I live in Wyoming so the temperature can go from 100deg to -45. Several years ago I bought a very accurate 22-250. Spring time I worked up a load that shot one hole groups at 3,600fps. I shot that load all summer on prairie dogs. December I went coyote hunting temp was between 0-15 deg. I missed a coyote at 100 yards by a foot and the bolt was hard to lift, shell was black with residue on it. So I went to a indoor range. I intentionally left the shells outside to get cold again between 0-15deg. Shot and chronographed three rounds. They shot 2"+ group at something like 3,200FPS. Warmed the next three to body temp and I was back at 3,600 and one hole groups. CFE223 is the most temp sensitive powder I've ever used!!! It's almost to the point of being dangerous! That just my experience, take it for what you like.

Switch to Superformance.

 

[Rosebud]

I've still got half of the original can of CFE223 from over a decade ago. I'm with Butter bean in his thought on STaBall. Its good for starting campfires. Best accuracy is with Varget, best compromise of speed and accuracy is Powder Pro V.

 

[Rosebud]

Wa

Master Yoda! First time I've received such high praise haha. Of course this is all long before my time (born in 91, almost 40 years younger than those newfangled "magnum" primers ). But as with many of us here I'm weirdly hyper focused on all things related to this interest and, while I can't remember where the heck my keys are, I remember random tidbits of gun information i read when I was 11 haha.

Also speaking of '91. I saw a thing the other day reminding us that we are closer to the year 2050 than we are to 1990 and now I feel dizzy haha. The math does add up but somehow that can't be right!

was born exactly fourty years before you. Youngest son born in 91. God almighty I'm old. Did have hang fire loading friends 300 Rum had standard primer instead of magnum. He had no magnums, I've never had any. Was one time event. Maybe bad primer.

 

[Calvin45]

Wa

was born exactly fourty years before you. Youngest son born in 91. God almighty I'm old. Did have hang fire loading friends 300 Rum had standard primer instead of magnum. He had no magnums, I've never had any. Was one time event. Maybe bad primer.

Hehehehe…my dads barely got you beat. 1950.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

I had a surprising experience recently with CFE223 in cold temp.

I was fire forming and breaking in a new barrel on a 6.5 47L with 143 Hornady pills.

2nd or 3rd round I actually felt the firing pin drop before it went off?

Next round I seen the firing pin drop before it went off? Never seen that before.

I set up the Labradar, numbers were all over the place, 75 to 80 fps spread.

I have a jug and half in the cabinet that I will not be using anytime soon.

Not impressed!

 

[ridgewalker]

Me thinks '47 was a good year! But it sure makes hunting Colorado a lot tougher!

 

[Rosebud]

Me thinks '47 was a good year! But it sure makes hunting Colorado a lot tougher!

Amen brother! My mountain climbing day are over! 35 Years as a paramedic killed my back. Crash on a mountain bike put a plate and 6 screws in my neck when I was 46. Trying to stay in shape to hunt out west, but brought it crashing down, pun intended!

 

[Calvin45]

I had a surprising experience recently with CFE223 in cold temp.

I was fire forming and breaking in a new barrel on a 6.5 47L with 143 Hornady pills.

2nd or 3rd round I actually felt the firing pin drop before it went off?

Next round I seen the firing pin drop before it went off? Never seen that before.

I set up the Labradar, numbers were all over the place, 75 to 80 fps spread.

I have a jug and half in the cabinet that I will not be using anytime soon.

Not impressed!

Yikes. I may honestly resell the 3 unopened 1 lb jugs I have on auction if I keep hearing this.

 

[Calvin45]

Switch to Superformance.

I've seen superformance do weird things…,IN THE COLD! It's like it's reverse temp sensitive. It's stable and trustworthy for me in the heat, even when it's hotter than when I did work up.

But the other day was shooting in -20 or so, and the it honestly was spiking hard. Ammo and rifle were both outside overnight, not a case of a warm bullet being forced through a frozen cold bore that had shrunk a little.

120 fps GAINED from June to December in Saskatchewan and a stiff bolt and blown primer.

 

[Rosebud]

I've seen superformance do weird things…,IN THE COLD! It's like it's reverse temp sensitive. It's stable and trustworthy for me in the heat, even when it's hotter than when I did work up.

But the other day was shooting in -20 or so, and the it honestly was spiking hard. Ammo and rifle were both outside overnight, not a case of a warm bullet being forced through a frozen cold bore that had shrunk a little.

120 fps GAINED from June to December in Saskatchewan and a stiff bolt and blown primer.

Wow!!! That's serious change! I know extreme cold does make steel shrink. Sauer super cools its barrel and presses them into the action on some, if not all of their rifles. Got two of them , wondering what happens when its shot out.