California - Copper

Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Ca
I can not get California required copper bullet loads to group up. I can get 1.5 MoA grouping but get sub 1 MOA has proved elusive with full copper bullets.

Anyone else having this issue?

I’m having the same issue regardless of the caliber
300 weatherby, 30-06, 6.5x284, and 243...

Lead I can throw 3 and all three will be touching, copper bullets string out all over place.
I had the same issue with my 300 wm. Had to cooper clean the barrel i used to shoot 168 smks in and then the 168 ttsx and 150s ttsx worked awesome
 

Blacktailer

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Sep 17, 2019
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27
Location
AZ
Been using Barnes from mid 90's. X, TSX, TTSX, X coated, you name it. One thing you need to be aware of is that monos typically expand to less frontal area than cup and core bullets. For that reason they will typically out-penetrate a C&C but impart less energy to the game (I can't recall ever recovering a Barnes from an animal). For that reason, it is typically better to shoot for CNS or bone to minimize tracking animals. Your typical behind the shoulder lung shot while fatal can sometimes lead to extended tracking sessions.
 

WYO300RUM

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Messages
1,251
Location
Wyoming
I can not get California required copper bullet loads to group up. I can get 1.5 MoA grouping but get sub 1 MOA has proved elusive with full copper bullets.

Anyone else having this issue?

I’m having the same issue regardless of the caliber
300 weatherby, 30-06, 6.5x284, and 243...

Lead I can throw 3 and all three will be touching, copper bullets string out all over place.
I was going to say on Sun. That I had a load for my Rem. 700 300 RUM I used for years with first a 180 TSX and then a TTSX with 98.0 grs. Retumbo at 3300 fps..it shot 5 shot 1/2 in. groups for years. It was a deer and elk thumper. Maybe work with Retumbo in you 300 Weatherby and some 168 TTSX, 175 LRX or 180 TTSX. I haven't even got to Retumbo yet with my new barrel or 6.5's yet. Been working with Hammers lately with good results. 181 Hammers and H1000 with great results . 124 Hammers in 6.5 PRC , 6.5X284 and Creedmoor
 

LiveToHunt7

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Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
48
Location
Oakdale, CA
Can You explain the stability factor of 1.5 and 2? what is this calculated from?
Use this Berger app to figure out if the bullet will stabilize. I just found it yesterday. They also may be conservative on the necessary twist but just input your bullet and ballistic data and see what it says.


Also take a look at Badlands Precision bullets. I'll be trying those out for my 7.
 

Tidus56

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Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Messages
846
You need to be sure that your bore is completely clean of any jacketed bullets fouling before starting load development with copper bullets. It should be down to bare metal before you start.
This is interesting, I changed to Hammers in one of my rifles without scrubbing it out as well as I should have. Long story short they shot very well. I must have got lucky and I’ll keep it in mind for next time I shoot a copper.
 

BEEMAN

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Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
1,396
This is interesting, I changed to Hammers in one of my rifles without scrubbing it out as well as I should have. Long story short they shot very well. I must have got lucky and I’ll keep it in mind for next time I shoot a copper.
I did the same thing in my 6.5x47. Probably not as clean as it should if been. Switched from 130 Accubond to 124 HH. Shoots excellent.
 

Eagel Builder

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Feb 28, 2020
Messages
47
Location
San Diego Ca
Barnes are the best. Tried the early E-Tip Nosler ….crap ! Barnes recommends lighter bullets then what you would use with lead. TSX are better than TTSX for penetration. My opinion and sticking with it!:cool:
 

WYO300RUM

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Mar 23, 2011
Messages
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Wyoming
Barnes are the best. Tried the early E-Tip Nosler ….crap ! Barnes recommends lighter bullets then what you would use with lead. TSX are better than TTSX for penetration. My opinion and sticking with it!:cool:
When E Tips first came out I tried using load data from Barnes . Even lower end loads had major pressure. Never used again stuck with Barnes TSX and TTSX and GMX a little. Now with Hammers .
 

iclick

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Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
46
Location
NorCal
I have experimented with copper bullets for over 6 years. There are five of us that hunt in NorCal and have found that for deer the best overall performance has come from The Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos and the Cutting Edge Raptors. But they cost a bunch. We will use them for Elk and other class 3 game but for deer size and below we shoot the Chaos. The principal is to have a lead free bullet that performs like the old lead standby Nosler Partition. Take a look at their gel shot videos on YouTube to see examples of the design in work. The thing with lead free bullets is they are long for weight so you may find that by stepping down a weight will increase accuracy and performance on game. They need a bit more speed to perform. They also prefer a fairly large jump to the lands when seating them.
What we all found with the more traditional lead free designs they tend to go through so fast that even though they mushroom well they expend most of their energy outside the animal which means that many of our well placed heart or lung shots required more tracking. The guides that I work with all tell their customers to shoot for the front shoulder instead so that you can release more of the energy within an animal and pieces of the bone will cause more tissue damage. There is a good write up and video on copper bullets on the ballistic studies website here: Be aware that he shows some graphic images of wound channels etc.


Hope this helps. I have worked with them in .243, .257 Wby, 25 WSSM, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5-284 Norma, 6.8SPC, 270 Win, 300 B/O, 308, 300 Win Mag., 300WSM, 338 Federal, 35 Whelen, 450 Bushmaster as well as several handgun calibers. Load workups are basically the same as with lead only you need to step down in weight to maintain the speed needed for the lead free to perform as designed. And they will need to have a good jump to the lands. The elk in my avatar was taken with the 300 WSM at 182 yards with a Cutting Edge 150Gr. Long Range Raptor bullet. The core of the bullet made full penetration and the 6 petals were in a circle around the exit hole about 4 inches wide. Some actually exited but we found some embedded in the exit side rib cage and hide. The animal never took a step. The heart and both ribs had extensive damage from both the core and the pedals.
 
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MS660Magnum

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Jun 20, 2020
Messages
33
Location
California
Everyone seems to be right on with my experience also. I’ve has great luck with Barnes (TSX, TTSX, and LRX), so-so with Hornady GMX, and busted with Nosler E-Tips. As others have noted, I learned early on that copper bullets are longer than lead, meaning that you may have to get a lighter (ie shorter) bullet to match your twist rate.

One thing I haven’t seen stated here yet is that copper/guilding metal bullets are also typically HARDER than c&c bullets. That’s why they need the relief cuts in order to smash into the rifling properly. One effect of that hardness, coupled with the longer bearing surface in n the barrel, is that you can build excessive pressures very easily, especially with a fast-burn powder. Therefore, it’s very important to use load data specific to that bullet, or at least for monolithic bullets. You can’t take your old recipe for c&c bullets and just stick a copper in there of the same weight. You’ll probably have to change your charge. That pressure difference may also be why so many have noticed that monos like that free bore jump.

One more plus for Barnes is that their load data is typically freely available on their website. I’d start there.
 

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