• If you are being asked to change your password, and unsure how to do it, follow these instructions. Click here

Bronzing steel?

Packrat 6

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 1, 2014
Messages
1,223
Location
Arizona
I'm going to post this in both Gunsmithing and Muzzle Loading since muzzle loaders often want to re-create the authentic look and sometimes that was in a Brown or bronze finish and they may be aware of this process.

I was reading a book of formulas originally printed in 1907 and under steel bluing ran across an old formula for Bronzing steel. At first I thought it was the old Ordinance formula for cannon, but kept reading and it seems to be a modification of the Fume Bluing process except it turns the steel bronze colored and is supposedly permanent.

Basically it boils down to exposing the item to be bronzed to the concentrated fumes of a mixture of 50% Nitric acid and 50% Concentrated Hydrochloric Acid for a period of 3-5 minutes. (Concentrated was emphasized in the formula) Then the item is covered with a coat of petroleum Jelly (Vaseline) and heated until the petroleum jelly decomposes. The item to be bronzed must be perfectly clean with no residual oils and the bronze color is supposedly permanently embedded or becomes part of the steel. This appears to be almost a cold bronzing process, except for heating the Vaseline.

OK, so there are commercial products out there that will do approximately the same thing, but all of them I've seen end up with a deep brown-red (Plum) Bronze and require temperatures in the 600 degree plus range. Where this got even more interesting is that by the addition of Acetic acid to the above mix, by varying the proportions of the acetic acid percentages in the mix, colors from a Yellow bronze through the before mentioned brown-red, with no acetic acid, can be obtained from the fumes. Apparently the color variations are extremely variable. This process may explain some of the old, old shotguns I've seen in England, with yellowish bronze colored steel sidewalls on the receiver.

Is anyone familiar with this process and has possibly tried it? Any thoughts on the process? Am I barking at a fake fireplug? If no one has tried it, or is familiar with it, when I get moved back to Washington (or maybe Idaho) next spring I'm going to try it on some junked steel rifle parts just to see what happens. Would try it here, but most of my shop is either packed up or sold and the fume hood went fast. I am down to basic hand tools, almost.

Packrat
 
t.

Packrat

I used a slow rust blue process about 45 years ago. The first attempt was to blue my 270 Win. Beautiful very dark blue with a nifty matted look. Lasted about 20 years.

I then used the exact same process and went complete I hit it with a very soft stainless brush wheel. It turned the most beautiful dark brown with many highlights. Was mat and no glare whatever.

I doubt homeland security would allow purchase of the chemicals. The druggist was quite concerned I wasn't going to poison myself or anyone else......

Sorry the paper the formula was written on dissolved.

If I could find a good chemical mix I'd definitely do it again.

Go for it.
 
Roy,
This book has about 18 pages on coloring of metals scattered throughout the book. There are bluing formula's using cyanide, and just about everything else. If you can remember part of the formula, will check it out and see if it or something similar is in the book.

Let me know and I'll check if you can remember some of the components.

Packrat
 
Packrat 6, I've had no experience but thanks to you tube am about to start experimenting. Am going to try color case hardening which is fairly straightforward,or at least seems so. That book you have is a rare gem, please post pic's of your work!
 
Shorty,
Good luck with the color case hardening. I've been faking it on some old shotguns with steel dye from Steel FX and by diluting them so they are not so bright have managed to pretty well match the damaged ones. if you know someone that does pottery and has a Kiln, it will help a bunch for controlled temperatures.

Once I get back to Washington, my son has a fairly well equipped tool and machine shop at his place so will be able to play more than I can here. Usually am busy with the "Weapons for Warriors" program where we take Closet Queen donated rifles, shotguns etc, repair and restore them, take them out and test them, and then sell them through the local gun shows (one of the local gun dealers gives us a commission break) with the proceeds going to the Wounded Warriors program. Problem is we ran out of old shotguns, 22's and what have you. Never knew what we were going to get to work on, but was fun to me since I enjoy turning a *** into something not only functional, but if possible, pretty. For example, these are fairly typical:
Savage 340 30-30 When we got it, couldn't open the bolt it was so dirty!
DSCN0740.jpg
Click to enlarge

Wards Western Field 20 Ga. Just neglected and dirty, needed re-blued, stock refinished and a new mainspring.
DSCN0780.jpg
click to enlarge

Anyway, have fun

Packrat
 
Brownells (and maybe Midway) markets a formula for barrel browning made by Mark Lee. The depth of color can be varied by the amount and number of applications. Requires no fuming or boiling water tank, just the appropiate degreasers and a clean carding brush. Those yellow colors on the shotgun side plates, probably reminants of case colors. I've work with the original CCH charcoal process for over 20 years. A heat treat oven is required,,, a kiln would be real iffy as most kilns are top loading. You have to be able to remove the crucible and get it to a quench tank. Top loading kilns make that awful hard. Remember, you're dealing with temps above 1333 deg. F. That's hot enough that a minor slip will be disasterous! Aquiring old forumlas is like finding buried treasure, trouble is the stuff needed may be near impossible if not completely impossible to obtain. Charred leather was used in the past for CCH. Won't work now as the tanning process now uses chromium and that'll contaminate the works. Same situation found with browning & bluing formulas. Try buying enough ammonium nitrate to mix up your own hot caustic bluing chemicals!
 
Thanks Shortgrass.
i assume, probably erroneously, that the process you are talking about is the process using Linseed oil and a Coal or charcoal fire? Will have to research the CCH process. Most of the processes I ran across required heating to over 600 degree's, but will check out Brownell's and Midway for the bronzing process you are talking about.

I had a fume hood I salvaged from a Army Medical laboratory I remodeled a number of years ago, but no forge. When I let people I associate with know I was going to be liquidating a lot of my power tools and equipment, they all descended on me like a flock of vultures at a road kill convention. One guy wanted to buy everything, including making an pretty good offer on my wife, but when she started listing everything the law would allow her to take with her, I realized I was going to be living in a box culvert under I-10. Going to have to keep an eye on him.

I haven't messed with case hardening, just faking it with Steel dyes on mainly shotgun repairs where the case hardening has been messed up and over coating with a flat clear protective layer . The reason mentioned the Kiln is there is a lady a couple doors down has la 36"' diameter kiln about 4' high that has temperature controls to +/- 5 degrees she uses for pottery and since usually the only thing that gets case hardened on shotguns is the action, seemed like it would work. Guess not. Isn't that what this site is all about? Making sure us amateurs don't screw up too badly?

I know what you mean about the components with the Fed controlling everything and that is why I was so interested in this process. So far I can still get my hands on high grade Nitric Acid, Hydrochloric Acid and Acetic acid. Can't figure out why they are controlling Ammonium Nitrate though! :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks again.

Sharp Shooter.gif
 
No linseed oil and charcoal. That's "charcoal bluing",, I think. CCH requires the part to be in the annealed state. If it's already hardened it needs to be annealed, otherwise it may stress crack. After annealing, the part is polished and then 'packed' in a crucible with bone or wood charcoal or a combination or both (it's up the guy doing the work). The crucible, with the part and charcoal in it are then heated in a heat treat oven. The temp must be above 1333 deg. F before quenching for hardening to actually take place on low carbon steel. The hotter the part, the higher the hardness. The colors associated with CCH are just a by product of the hardening process. I built my crucibles out of 4"x4"x 3/16" wall steel tubing. Welded a bottom on and built a good fitting but easily removable lid. I knock the lid off at the quenching tank and quickly dump the contents of the crucible into the tank. I have a screen type catch basket for easy removal of the part(s). Hardness and color are entirely dependent on the steel and the charcoal it is packed in. There are/were as many different methods used in the past as there were shops that did the process. As for the ammonium nitrate, yes its a common fertilized but was also part of the 'blend' that Tim McVay (sic) used to blow-up the Fed. building in OKC back in the late 90's. Since then it's been strictly controlled.
 
Great information on the CCH. I learned something today and wasn't sure it was going to happen before bedtime...LOL. Since you have so much experience with steel, got a couple of questions for you.

I want to go back to the Chilean Mauser pictures you posted on another thread and ask about something related to the Mauser I was given. My wife threw me out of the kitchen, told me to go find a project and mumbled something about me failing retirement. Sooooo, went out to the shop in the Garage, and started disassembling the Mauser. then removed all the bluing and started polishing everything. Since I had sold my buffers and grinders, along with all the other power tools, I was restricted to a Dremel moto-tool and a 18 V drill and my hand tools.

After several days of cleaning, polishing and sanding with 400, 600, 800, 1000 through 2500 wet or dry sandpaper here is what I ended up with.

DSCN0870.jpg DSCN0862.jpg DSCN0863.jpg DSCN0865.jpg None of the parts are attached yet, they are jus sitting there to see what it would look like.

I decided that I liked the rifle better in the White, but along where the stock tops out on the receiver, there is some pitting that ruins my whole day just from appearance sake. The one good gunsmith locally told me not to worry about them and I adjusted the light to show them at their worst.

DSCN0866.jpg DSCN0867.jpg

So, the questions are threefold.
1) what is the minimum temperature where steel will lose it's temper?
2) I am thinking about having the rifle hard chromed to protect the steel and then soft sanding a satin finish onto the hard chrome. Any thoughts?
3) Is there any way of filling these pits before I have it chromed other than removing the barrel, welding them over and grinding and polishing back to the natural finish and then having it re-tempered?

I didn't polish any bearing surfaces, just cleaned them down to bare metal and don't know why some of the pictures look like they haven't been cleaned, just the lighting I guess. Anyway with the dark stock, the rifle looks really good in the white and have decided to create a heirloom and I'll have uncle Ben's data engraved on the stock when he passes away. All original, just better looking than a standard military rifle.!

And I'll admit it, not as nice as yours with that stock, but one heck of a lot cheaper!...:D

One last thing, who would do this type of work if I have it done? The local gunsmith doesn't want to do it, says he's not equipped for it.

Packrat
 
Case hardened parts are not "tempered", they are usually only stress relieved. Modern high carbon steels (that are heat treatable) are tempered after hardening. Tempering temps are dependent entirely on the chemistry of the steel. The only safe way to fill those pits would be to tig weld them (after the receiver was annealed) and re-surface that area of the receiver and then have it (the receiver) re-case hardened. Only a hobbiest would take on such a chore. The tig welder would have to be an "expert". Have it plated, only if you want to. I'd choose a 'pitless' Mauser, if it was me.
 
Well, what you told me allows me to make a decision. I also prefer a "A Pitless Mauser" myself and since I don't have anything except time invested aside from some sandpaper, think that's what I'll do. Am just a hobbiest, and can afford to indulge myself and like I said, create a heirloom.

Unless i can take the barrel off with a couple of pipe wrenches (Just kidding) I'm going to have to farm it out, since am not qualified to do any part of it.

Anyway thanks for the input, at least now I know what has to be done. Just got to find a place to have it done. My gunsmith can take off the barrel, but having the annealing, welding, regrinding and polishing and re-tempering done is going to require a specialist.

My thoughts on the hard chrome were that I prefer to knock off some of the shine and have more of a satin finish, more like Stainless, and at the same time protect the underlying steel from Rust and crud. Washington is a wet, wet state so can't leave it in the "White".

Thanks again,

Packrat
 
I just ran "firearms restoration" through the 'search' bar on my browsers' home page. The list is more than a few. I'd start dialing the phone and asking questions. I've got the notion that you could buy two+ pitless Mausers for the price of 'restoring' the one you have, but I could be wrong.
 
Gee, thanks for the encouragement...LOL.

Will just have to see what happens. May be able to buy a new receiver from one of the suppliers, but will have to have it shipped to a FFL here locally. I also may be able to buy another rifle fairly cheap if the barrel or stock or whatever is damaged and make 1 good rifle out of the two. Then again, maybe the horse will learn how to sing!

Will check into it in depth tomorrow.

Thanks for everything!

Bruce
 
Warning! This thread is more than 10 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top