Brass undersized by .020” :(

[Dean2]

J E CUSTOM

You are full of fecal debris and have no idea what you are talking about.

I feel sorry for new reloaders who read your postings.

On top of this the Senior British Armourer in the UK told me about this when I collected Enfield rifles.

Sorry spud but J E is correct. He is one of the most knowledgeable guys on here when it comes to this kind of thing and while he and I don't always agree on everything he never spreads wrong information. When we disagree it is about application, not the facts. You are the one spreading incorrect information. I have no idea what the Queens Armourer told you and whether you remember it right or not. If your remember right, he was wrong.

 

[bigedp51]

Sorry spud but J E is correct. He is one of the most knowledgeable guys on here when it comes to this kind of thing and while he and I don't always agree on everything he never spreads wrong information. When we disagree it is about application, not the facts. You are the one spreading incorrect information. I have no idea what the Queens Armourer told you and whether you remember it right or not. If your remember right, he was wrong.

Then read your Canadian No.4 Enfield manual used by your Canadian Rangers. The manual states if the bolt closes on the .074 gauge to use the next longest bolt head that will not allow the bolt to close on the .074 gauge. Meaning the headspace does not need to be tighter than .073 and .063 is minimum headspace.

So go back and read the section I posted from the 1929 British textbook of Small Arms and the amount of "DRY" bolt thrust. And why even today you are told not to fire a cartridge with oil in the chamber.

The longer the rifles headspace the lower the bolt thrust will be with a dry cartridge. And this is because the case absorbs the bolt thrust as the case stretches.

And it is the wet or oiled chamber that increases bolt thrust and not the amount of headspace with a dry cartridge.

 

[mwkelso]

Then read your Canadian No.4 Enfield manual used by your Canadian Rangers. The manual states if the bolt closes on the .074 gauge to use the next longest bolt head that will not allow the bolt to close on the .074 gauge. Meaning the headspace does not need to be tighter than .073 and .063 is minimum headspace.

So go back and read the section I posted from the 1929 British textbook of Small Arms and the amount of "DRY" bolt thrust. And why even today you are told not to fire a cartridge with oil in the chamber.

The longer the rifles headspace the lower the bolt thrust will be with a dry cartridge. And this is because the case absorbs the bolt thrust as the case stretches.

And it is the wet or oiled chamber that increases bolt thrust and not the amount of headspace with a dry cartridge.

Would that still be an acceptable amount of stretch for brass with multiple firings? I'm sure new brass has much more forgiveness that brass that has been fired multiple times...

Edit- I'm thinking in the terms of head separation risk, not bolt thrust.

 

[bigedp51]

A Look at Bolt Lug Strength
Lilja - Riflebarrels Inc.
https://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bolt-lug-strength/

Shear Strength

Unless a cartridge case undergoes a complete head separation upon firing, the side walls of the brass case will stick against the chamber walls. Under some circumstances they may absorb as much as half the thrust. Case walls or a chamber that are oily will reduce this friction. So the action designer will not take this aspect into consideration when designing the lugs to more closely simulate a complete case head failure.

 

[Dean2]

Then read your Canadian No.4 Enfield manual used by your Canadian Rangers. The manual states if the bolt closes on the .074 gauge to use the next longest bolt head that will not allow the bolt to close on the .074 gauge. Meaning the headspace does not need to be tighter than .073 and .063 is minimum headspace.

So go back and read the section I posted from the 1929 British textbook of Small Arms and the amount of "DRY" bolt thrust. And why even today you are told not to fire a cartridge with oil in the chamber.

The longer the rifles headspace the lower the bolt thrust will be with a dry cartridge. And this is because the case absorbs the bolt thrust as the case stretches.

So it seems really clear that you don't understand what you are reading. The difference between a .073 gauge and a .063 gauge is .010 , whereas most modern guns have a head space of .004 to .006. Thus these rifles had acceptable head space that is at least .004 larger than is now common. In fact most field gauges, longer than a no-go and the maximum allowed head space, only tolerate about .007-.008 as MAX head space on modern speced cartridges. With respect to not shooting oiled cartridges, I agree and that has nothing to do with head space, only with excess thrust at any head space.

The Lee Enfield 303 was a superbly designed BATTLE rifle. It was intentionally made with large head space to accommodate variations in wartime produced ammo and to tolerate mud, water and the like better than tightly head spaced rifles. Military ammo was never made to be reloaded, they didn't care about case stretch. Also, that rifles' lug system allows more case stretch but also is far easier to clean and less prone to gumming up. The gun was designed for ultimate reliability in a battle situation and it is one of the best designed battle rifles ever built. If you ever did much reloading for the 303 you would know you have to be very careful about shoulder bump if you are going to FL size or you will get case head separation in 3 or 4 firings.The fact that they made 4 different bolt heads that could be easily swapped as the gun wore is just more proof of the great design. You are confusing the gauge designations with actual head space.

 

[bigedp51]

Would that still be an acceptable amount of stretch for brass with multiple firings? I'm sure new brass has much more forgiveness that brass that has been fired multiple times...

Edit- I'm thinking in the terms of head separation risk, not bolt thrust.

The amount of stretch depends on chamber pressure and the amount of headspace. Example a 30-30 at 43,000 psi chamber pressure always has the primers protruding. This is because the chamber pressure is not great enough to make the brass stretch.

The ballpark thumb rule for bolt action shoulder bump is .001 to .002. This will give you the same or slightly more head clearance or air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And this minimum shoulder bump is within the elastic limits of the brass and the cases with not stretch and thin.

 

[bigedp51]

So it seems really clear that you don't understand what you are reading.

The only one with a reading problem is you, how much information do I have to post for you or anyone else that longer headspace does not increase bolt thrust.

And below is from the custom barrel maker Lilja - Riflebarrels Inc.from the link I posted

Shear Strength

Unless a cartridge case undergoes a complete head separation upon firing, the side walls of the brass case will stick against the chamber walls. Under some circumstances they may absorb as much as half the thrust. Case walls or a chamber that are oily will reduce this friction. So the action designer will not take this aspect into consideration when designing the lugs to more closely simulate a complete case head failure.

 

[Dean2]

The only one with a reading problem is you, how much informaton do I have to post for you or anyone else that longer headspace does not increase bolt thrust.

Shear Strength

Unless a cartridge case undergoes a complete head separation upon firing, the side walls of the brass case will stick against the chamber walls. Under some circumstances they may absorb as much as half the thrust. Case walls or a chamber that are oily will reduce this friction. So the action designer will not take this aspect into consideration when designing the lugs to more closely simulate a complete case head failure.

There isn't enough information that you can post because you are plain and simply wrong. If your version was correct you could have .050 head space instead of .006 and it wouldn't make any difference. Dry versus wet, absorbs half the thrust but there is still thrust. The further the case head can travel rearward the more thrust on the bolt head, simple law of physics.

 

[bigedp51]

There isn't enough information that you can post because you are plain and simply wrong. If your version was correct you could have .050 head space instead of .006 and it wouldn't make any difference.

The information I posted is not mine and I did not write it, example below for a 6.5 Creadmore.
Below you have A SAAMI chamber drawing and the headspace is listed as Min and Max with .010 in between the two. And the GO and NO-GO gauges are for setting up new or rebarreled rifles. And the field gauge allows for .007 wear or lug setback before the rifle has excessive headspace.

 

[25WSM]

I've been called fecal matter before. Don't worry about it. It washes off before the next thread starts.
Shep

 

[Dean2]

The information I posted is not mine and I did not write it, example below for a 6.5 Creadmore.
Below you have A SAAMI chamber drawing and the headspace is listed as Min and Max with .010 in between the two. And the GO and NO-GO gauges are for setting up new or rebarreled rifles. And the field gauge allows for .007 wear or lug setback before the rifle has excessive headspace.

This part is exactly correct and is precisely what I said a few posts earlier. That however does not support your argument that head space has no bearing on bolt thrust. More head space at exactly the same load, more bolt thrust, plain and simple. The specifications for bolt lug strength are in fact predicated on the amount of head space that will be present. That is actually what the Lilja article is trying to tell you and it is also saying that bolt thrust/lug strength was not built with oiled cases in mind as that will double the normal thrust..

 

[bigedp51]

Then all that Dean2 and J E Custom have to do is post written information from reliable sources that the longer the rifles headspace the greater the bolt thrust.

It will be fun waiting for information they both will not be able to find.

There are far too many midgets setting at their computers pretending to be giants.

 

[25WSM]

Someone tell me how to find more morrels please.
Shep

 

[mwkelso]

Someone tell me how to find more morrels please.
Shep

Like Morrel mushrooms?????

@J E Custom , @Dean2

Is the thrust against the bolt increased by the momentum of the case being forced back against it when headspace is excessive?