Brass shot from factory remington 7RUM too tight in new Mc gowen barrel?

[Max Heat]

Oh boy, now we've got an argument going. I don't even know WHY the belt issue was even brought up - RUM cartridges are NON-belted! I DO have a 7RM that DOES use belted cases. But since that's NOT the one experiencing the issue, it makes no sense for the thread to go in THAT direction.

I think what bountyhunter said about factory cases being at the upper end of sammi specs is probably what is coming into play here. Since rounds fired out of the aftermarket barrel resize and chamber fine, I don't think there is an issue with the die (it is carbide). So I don't believe there is any reason to shave it, or the shell holder plate, down. I don't know what a small-base die is, but I will try sticking 1 or 2 (4mil) aluminum (beverage can) shims under the cases when resizing, to see if that helps. But it is already very difficult to get them fully into the die, and then back out. So shimming them up will only increase that difficulty. But if that's what it takes to "make them good" again, I'll do it.

If that doesn't help, I may indeed have to ditch all of those cases (around 120), leaving me with only about 30 or so that HAVEN'T been shot out of the factory barrel. I won't be happy about that though, being that most of them have only had 1 load through them. It would probably be cheaper to buy a die that is tight enough to force the cases back down to un-fired, virgin specs. But the then the stuck-case (in the die) scenario will probably come in to play too often. As it is, I've already had some stuck ones that had to be knocked out, with considerable difficulty I might add. Wiithout case lube, I'm sure that every single one of them would have jammed up tight. When I run the cases fired out of the aftermarket barrel through the sizing die, they run right through it effortlessly, as if they did not even need to be resized!

I was really just kidding about dissing remington for having loose chambers. I just have to accept the reality that that's just "the way it is". So my plan of action will be an attempt at making them right, by making them [even more] tight - in the die, by using shims. If that does doesn't work, I'll have to toss them and buy fresh again.

PS - I'm thinking that "camming over" a carbide die is probably NOT a very good idea, is it?

 

[Gunpoor]

Max Heat, my bad, the OP wrote 7RUM and somehow I read 7RM. You are absolutely correct that a belt didn't cause the chamber size issue.

 

[varmintH8R]

Since rounds fired out of the aftermarket barrel resize and chamber fine, I don't think there is an issue with the die (it is carbide). So I don't believe there is any reason to shave it, or the shell holder plate, down. I don't know what a small-base die is, but I will try sticking 1 or 2 (4mil) aluminum (beverage can) shims under the cases when resizing, to see if that helps. But it is already very difficult to get them fully into the die, and then back out. So shimming them up will only increase that difficulty. But if that's what it takes to "make them good" again, I'll do it.

If that doesn't help, I may indeed have to ditch all of those cases (around 120), leaving me with only about 30 or so that HAVEN'T been shot out of the factory barrel. I won't be happy about that though,

I completely agree that if new cases fired in your new barrel can be resized and reloaded normally, I wouldn't start shaving dies or shellholders.

Do you have the ability to measure headspace of fired vs resized cases? I ask because if your issue is due to case-body width near the head, and not due to headspace, shimming and further sizing might push your shoulder back farther than you want.

I would measure as many areas as possible on the problem cases to determine where your issue is. Once you know for sure you can decide if it is worth chasing a solution to save your existing 1x brass.

I'm like you and hate pitching brass - but in the scheme of things it may be way easier (and cheaper) to do so. A major stuck case (either in rifle or sizing die) and you'll be wishing you had retired it. I speak from experience on that. . In 6 months those 120 cases will be but a distant bad memory....

I will again quote MontanaRifleman - bad juju!

Brandon

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I completely agree that if new cases fired in your new barrel can be resized and reloaded normally, I wouldn't start shaving dies or shellholders.

Do you have the ability to measure headspace of fired vs resized cases? I ask because if your issue is due to case-body width near the head, and not due to headspace, shimming and further sizing might push your shoulder back farther than you want.

I would measure as many areas as possible on the problem cases to determine where your issue is. Once you know for sure you can decide if it is worth chasing a solution to save your existing 1x brass.

I'm like you and hate pitching brass - but in the scheme of things it may be way easier (and cheaper) to do so. A major stuck case (either in rifle or sizing die) and you'll be wishing you had retired it. I speak from experience on that. . In 6 months those 120 cases will be but a distant bad memory....

I will again quote MontanaRifleman - bad juju!

Brandon

I agree that under "normal" circumstances you shouldn't have to shave off the die or shell holder. However, the cases fired in the factory chamber may have been stretched to such a point that they might need to be "overly" resized to get them back to at or near SAAMI spec and to fit in your chamber. You can't put shims under cases as the cases will not fit into the shell holder with shims in place. Shouldn't be able to anyway.

How are you setting up your sizing die? Standard instructions and procedure for FL sizing is to bottom out on the shell holder and turn it down another 1/8th to 1/4 turn. If you are only bottomed out on the shell holder, another 1/4 turn may get you there. I have some 300 RUM brass that after about 4 firings or so of high pressure loads will no longer fit my fairly tight custom chamber after FL sizing. I had to turn the die down a full turn past bottomed out and use a very heavy vam over stroke to get a case to chamber very tightly with some effort. I count that brass as done. I don't think yours is.

Turn your die down 1/4 turn past bottoming out and see what happens. If it's not chambering easy, continue to turm your die down a 1/4 at a time until it does but I wouldn't go farther than a full turn. If you have to go past 1/4 turn down to get a case to chamber, then I would HIGHLY recommend you shave down the shell holder or die. BTW, what 7 RUM sizing die are you using that is carbide? Shaving down a shell holder, or die will be a lot cheaper than buying a new lot of brass. It cost me $25 per die to have mine done.

Another issue here might be that the bolt face of the factory rifle is out of square. My smith received a rifle from another client of his that supposedly had a blue printed action. The clients sized cases would not chamber after firing. Close inspection revealed that the bolt face was 7 thou out of square and firing the brass gave case heads a cant. So, unless the cases were timed on the bolt face the way they were fired, they would not chamber.

I also agree with measuring all the critical areas on the cases. Base/web diameter, about a 1/4" above the web and the shoulder diameter and the case OAL. The cases that will no longer chamber in my RUM, after sizing, measure the same diameter 1/4" above the web as at the web which is .550 The cases that will chamber measure .548 1/4" above the web. The brass got pressured and stretched to the point what it would no longer size above the web without extreme measures.

Hope you get it figured out.

 

[varmintH8R]

Mark -

I've never heard of the cant issue, but it makes perfect sense. I'll put that one in the archives for the future.

As far as shaving a die, I wasn't saying never do it, just that I wouldn't if new brass fired in that chamber would sized and chamber adequately. My preference is not to "chase" an issue that is IMO a one-off and is solved by changing brass. Clearly, YMMV.

In any case, I have never had a die shaved and you have, and I have a question that may be relevant for the OP as well. My expectation would be that this will help if your need to push the shoulder farther back to make the brass chamber, and may also marginally increase sizing down at the bottom area of the case. If his issue ultimately turns out to be unrelated to shoulder bump/headspace, would shaving the die potentially result in excessive shoulder bump? Basically, does shaving a die allow you to further size the bottom "taper" of the case, and if so does it also push the shoulder back an equal amount? I would expect it would, but am interested in your experience.

Brandon

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mark -

I've never heard of the cant issue, but it makes perfect sense. I'll put that one in the archives for the future.

As far as shaving a die, I wasn't saying never do it, just that I wouldn't if new brass fired in that chamber would sized and chamber adequately. My preference is not to "chase" an issue that is IMO a one-off and is solved by changing brass. Clearly, YMMV.

In any case, I have never had a die shaved and you have, and I have a question that may be relevant for the OP as well. My expectation would be that this will help if your need to push the shoulder farther back to make the brass chamber, and may also marginally increase sizing down at the bottom area of the case. If his issue ultimately turns out to be unrelated to shoulder bump/headspace, would shaving the die potentially result in excessive shoulder bump? Basically, does shaving a die allow you to further size the bottom "taper" of the case, and if so does it also push the shoulder back an equal amount? I would expect it would, but am interested in your experience.

Brandon

Brandon, I agree that chasing a problem is not always the best way to solve it. So that's why I suggested to the OP to try turning the die down past bottoming out on the shell holder first. True, the brass not fired through the factory rifle will cycle just fine after sizing, as it sounds. But I have found, depending on a lot of variables, that different brass of the same cartridge do not always come out of the die the same. This is clearly the case with the OP. So he needs to take different steps to get the factory fired brass to fit the custom chamber. It sounds to me like the die needs to be screwed down until the brass fits the chamber. If it requires more than a quarter turn past bottoming out, I would recommend shaving either the die or the shell holder instead of running all 120 cases with the extra cam over and stress to the press - JMO. After getting this brass back to virgin or almost virgin dimensions, I highly recommend he anneal it because I'm guessing he will have worked the brass a good bit and though I'm not a metallurgist I'm guessing it will help to realign the molecules to the new shape.

As to your question regarding shaving down dies, The way I set up my dies is to adjust them, up OR down, until the brass barely chambers easily with no resistance to the bolt. This could mean that the die is screwed down at, or below, or above the top of the shell holder. Most of my dies are slightly above the top of the shell holder and a couple are slightly below, including one of the ones that was shaved. Shaving .010 - .020 off the die will have no bad effect so long as the web is not exposed. I have had no problems.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

If his issue ultimately turns out to be unrelated to shoulder bump/headspace, would shaving the die potentially result in excessive shoulder bump? Basically, does shaving a die allow you to further size the bottom "taper" of the case, and if so does it also push the shoulder back an equal amount? I would expect it would, but am interested in your experience.

Brandon

I'll try to answer this a little better. The taper of die remains the same regardless of how much you might shave off. In that regard it is all relative. Moving the die up or down is going to very slightly affect the diameter of the case from the web to the shoulder, but that is irrelevant. If the chamber is reamed with a reamer of the correct taper and to the correct depth, everything will fit. If the chamber is reamed slightly short, it will require setting the die appropriately to accommodate it, but it will all still fit, from the web to the shoulder.

 

[Max Heat]

Oops, made a double post - don't know how to COMPLETELY delete it.

 

[Max Heat]

OK, I just got back from the range, where things were getting heated up between some people. I got the hell out of there before cops or the game commish showed up, cause my spection sticker is expired! But that's way off topic, so I won't elaborate, unless someone wants to hear what went down.

I shot a total of 6 rounds, with the first one being the "test" round for one of the factory barrel cases that was resized using the 2 aluminum shims, which total .008" thickness (they did fit). It DID seem to help, as the round went forward into the chamber OK. There WAS some tightness when dropping the bolt down though. But after firing and then re-chambering it, the bolt went down without any tightness except at the very bottom of it's travel. Good enough for me, as I think it will now re-size much easier. Hold on a sec - lemme run it through and see...

Hmm, that's interesting. It re-sized MUCH easier this time - similar to the ones shot out of the new barrel originally, and it does chamber OK. But now it IS back to having some light tension, the whole length of travel, when locking the bolt down.

But now I think the REAL issue is how much the (5-way) shell holder tears up on the rim of the shells when pulling the (factory barrel fired) shells out of the sizing die. I was not able to get the "test" shell to lock into the case trimmer chuck after initially re-sizing it - and it still doesn't lock in now. I think I'm ready to start drinking...

 

[lazylabs]

ummmm scotch....

What kind of lube are you using? What kind of case cleaning? lubing the inside of the necks? I was just thinking the hard die extraction is usually one of those problems.

 

[Max Heat]

Ummmm - takilya! Not "shots", but "jiggers" (1.5 shot). Om outta shine - my pref, since i bin watchin da shinerz sho [mouth iz watering fer sum rite now].

Using Lee brand (same az my LM press) "resizing lubricant". Says: "Eliminates Stuck Cases", but miss a spot, and it'll be stuck. Only ever had stuck cases that were fired out of that factory 7RUM barrel. All other cases I have run have sized MUCH easier. Dam - PA Outdoor Life is on right now, and I missin out on it cause I doin this! It's OK though - I'll get over it.

I use walnut shell media in the tumbler to clean cases. But not bin doin that (or lubing inside of neck) for the couple few that I bin testin out in da new barrel. I'm thinkin maybe I just ended up getting a bad (out of toerance) chambered barrel wen I bought the rifle.

Maybe i go back to dissin rem 4 it - but now that I past uzin it, gotta figure where to go with shells shot out uv it. Kan day B "fix" 2 uze - or no? Dat is da kweschin (man, I gotta bail here soon....).

I will toss that barrel, rather that try to pawn it off on some unspecting "victum". Already hav PMz frum folk offering 2 take the "bloated" brass off my hanz thouw. Makes me think more fresh brass B hard to get, so I holdin back 4 now.

But what is juju? Uzed 2 eat juju-beez candy when I wuz a kid bak in 60-70z era. Is it something like karma, mojo, or chee? Or a "other" form of "energy"?

I hav 2 cum 2 desision on if 2 hold them - or "fold" them.

 

[shortgrass]

It used to be considered "common knowlege" that with any barrel change NEW brass was going to be part of the equasion. It wasn't expected that brass from one chamber could be used in the new one. If it did, and had been fired in a 'factory' chamber, and would fit a 'custom' chamber the owner wasn't real happy. He'd expect the custom chamber to be 'tighter' than 'factory'. Part of the reason for going "custom". Post what what work along with how many times fired on any FS classified section of any forum and it'll sell. No sense 'pitching' it.

 

[BountyHunter]

Bounty..... what you said makes no sense. riflesmith vs gunsmith? There are two types of gunsmiths, talented or not.

That is exactly what I meant by that. You see too many gunsmiths that throw a rifle together but not correctly. I have seen headspace .020 off, wrong reamers and caliber shipped to a guy, smiths that indicate the barrel on the outside instead of inside for chambering, bedding where the action and barrel were severly stressed etc. Not all gunsmiths are good riflesmiths for custom LR rifles.

 

[BountyHunter]

I don't think there is an issue with the die (it is carbide).

Take a look again, I doubt you have a carbide rifle sizing die. Are you lubing the cases?

Bushing yes, but **** few carbide dies out there and expensive as heck. Plus carbide bushings are $75 a piece IF you can get someone to make them.