Bonded vs Non Bonded - Accubond vs Berger or SST or Ballistic Tip

[LVJ76]

My (new) only issue with SSTs is on wet animals. I shot a nice buck this year who took off down a ravine and died. After recovery, I was cleaning him out and noticed his entrance wound side lung smashed against his heart. Looked like his heart actually smashed thru his lung. I washed him out and started looking for broken ribs, an exit hole... anything. I found the bullet on the outside of two cracked ribs in chunks covering a 2"-3" area.
I did some research and found out that in tests, bonded bullets penetrate wet hide much better than unbonded. BUT like you said, a "hot" ABLR could just punch a laser beam thru the animal allowing it to expire much slower.
Taking that in to account, I am now making both rounds (SST and ABLR) and trying to get like grain bullets to fly as close to each other out to 500yds. This way I have one round for dry and one for wet that fly close to each other. (STILL IN TESTING)

I can definitely see water causing a premature expansion. I have read multiple times that Ballistic Tips and Accubonds have same POI, you can provably try that.

I know for a fact the SST and Ballistic Tip/ Accubond do not have the same POI. The rifle I used for Javelina last week loves the 139gr SST, and the Accubond I used has a POI 4" to the left at 100 yds. The lighter 120gr Ballistic Tip has a POI of almost 6" to the left of the SST.

Let me know please what results you get out if your tests.

Thanks

 

[LVJ76]

I've been on a couple elk hunts now with a couple different people and some guys say if you're spending that kind of money on a hunt it's worth making sure your bullet doesn't fail go with barnes. So I have. and on the other hand I have a friend who's hunted elk with me twice now who loves Bergers and has taken at least two with them from his 7 rem mag. I am the other hand like the performance of Barnes but I just wish they made a higher BC bullet.

I have also had good luck with SST's. I've only shot one Whitetail with an Accubond, he didn't make it ten yards. I've not personally had satisfactory results with BTIPS, the exception being Antelope. For Elk I have exclusively used 180gr Barnes XXX In 300Win.

From my experience your desired point of aim will determine what bullet you need, in this case the AB was too hard for a lung shot. Lesson learned.

As fas as Barnes go I've witnessed two well placed shots and had to track animals for a while to find them. Now maybe if a shoulder had been hit then the results would've been different. I have however seen a coues go 500+ yards on a blown shoulder.

I guess we all have our go to bullets based on our experiences. To a point there is no right or wrong answer.


Thanks guys for your input

 

[emp1953]

I load 165gr Nosler partitions in my 30-06 I regularly took whitetails between 200 and 600yds with a single shot, They all dropped in their tracks. Then I got a .270win loaded with 150gr Partitions. Not one deer has dropped in its tracks like with the 30-06. an haven't lost any of them. A little tracking has been required. So I moved to the ABLR's in both calibers, No improvement in performance with the .270 and with the '06 they no longer dropped in their tracks. I will say that the ABLRs produced tighter groups than the Partitions. Interestingly the ABLRs did plenty of damage on the deer, Just doesn't anchor them like the '06 with partitions does. Went back to the Nosler partitions in both calibers because I saw no "terminal" improvement with the ABLRs. The '06 again anchors them where they stand and the .270 still requires a little tracking. Just adding my experience.

 

[LVJ76]

When I started hunting with the 270 WSM and The 300 RUM, I had great success with 130gr BT 270, and 180 gr BT 300 RUM. All dead Right There with lots of damage to the lungs, like Jell-O. Ranges were 200 - 400 yards. But one year hunting in Oregon with my 270 WSM the BT exploded. the Black tail was at 20 feet. Had to track it and found it with a 6 inch hole no exit. Thinking it was just the 270 WSM, did not Change the 180 BT until two years later when the same thing happen on a elk and 25 yards. I switched over to the AB or NP and never looked back. I did shoot a nice Mule Deer Buck 4X4 and a 3X4 Bull Elk this last year with the 190 ABLR with my 300 WSM with no issues, both DRT. Deer was at 175 yards and the Elk was at 300 Yards. The Whole Idea of the AB or the ABLR is to keep them from blowing up at short range. the facts of life of long range hunting is sometimes the range is measured in feet, not yards, and any animal with holes in both Lungs are not going far, but if the bullet blows up and only take out one you are in for a long track and could even lose the animal. Just my opinion and what 55 years of experience has taught me.

For high velocity/magnum cartridges you would need the heaviest Ballistic Tip there is and in some cartridges still they will not work at all at close range. My dad went from the 130gr Ballistic Tip to the 150gr in his 270 Win and performance was night and day on the big desert mulies when shots were 30 to 60 yds in the desert flats. But on a larger cartridge like a 270 Wby Mag forget it, they'll blow up.

Thanks again

 

[Parkerized]

I shot an antelope with a 300 Berger from my Edge this past August; went thru him with a 2" exit hole. Still ran 150 yards.

The one bullet I have lost confidence in a the Barnes. I shot a grizzly bear a few years ago right behind his front leg as he was quartering away. His right leg (opposite side) flew up in the air and smacked to the ground, only to get up and run into a massive alder patch (like kilometers wide and long). It was very near dark, so my guide said we would return the next morning to fetch him. That night it rained all night and the only blood we found was on an upside down leaf.

I thought maybe I hit him too high. Eight months later I took a shot at a kudu with the same load. Kudu didn't flinch. PH said, "You hit him good, just wait."

Kudu starts to feed a bit, then walks away. PH says shoot him again, so I did and he dropped. When we skinned him we saw the Barnes completely penciled through its lungs. Made me wonder if that is what happened to my grizz bear the fall before. Who knows? That same bullet, a 225 .338 Barnes, has killed an African lion and leopard in Tanzania (pretty soft) as well as all kinds of plains game in three other Tanz hunts, two in Namibia, one in Zim (although I did shoot my leopard on that hunt with a Hornady 225 cup and core), a pile of 6x6 elk, four moose in AK/BC and the Yukon, and god knows what else.

I guess if you hunt long enough, s*&t happens.

 

[Buckys]

I've had great luck with accubonds at high velocity, e.g., 140AB in 270roy or 280ai. I love 162sst in my 7mag, 150 Fusion in my 270win, towards heavy for cartridge with those bullets where they're running less than 3100 MV.

 

[Bull_Mtn]

I know, they didn't shoot too bad just not good enough.

Stay safe

I recently worked up some loads for my .300 WSM, with 181gr Hammer Hunters. My loads are strictly for hunting elk in MT, where I have a cabin. To conserve powder and primers, I shoot 2 shot groups, which is usually all that's needed to kill an elk. At 100 yds 3/8th in group and 200 yds, 5/8 in group. My rifle is a Mod 70 Winchester, with bedded barrel and action, and trigger adjusted to 3 lb, so it;s not a custom rifle. It has shot every Hammer bullet I have tried, with outstanding accuracy, however, the 181 HH shoots the best. I plan to use this bullet for the next elk season, and I'm confident that the terminal performance will be as good as the accuracy.

 

[WYOHTF]

My experience with the SSTs are
In 25-06 117 gr
7mm-08 A.I. 139 gr.
7mm RM 162 gr.
.308 Win 165 gr.
The first two on deer performed great at 65-450 ish yards for many years
The .308 killed many elk with the 165's loaded over Varget. Bullet still performed well at 550 yds. on a rag bull with a lung shot.
Went 40' and pilled up
The 162's out of the 7mmRM only has three cow elk to compare
But it worked very well. Two were under 400 yards and one yearling cow at 663 yards. I've got lots of SST's for each rifle we own. For me, I have found them extremely accurate.
They have my go to for many years.
I do have to admit I've got Partitions, ELDx's, And SMK's on standby
This year we DO intend to hunt exclusively with Absolute Hammers

 

[griz375]

My 2 cents worth, I've seen several hundred critters ranging from Javilina to moose shot with about 75% of the commonly available bullets, and they all kill, but I've also seen different results from critter to critter useing the exact same bullet. From what I have seen through personal experiences is the bonded and premium bullets will give you very predictable results, meaning if the bullet doesn't pass through I pretty much know what it's going to look like when I dig it out.

All that being said back when I was guiding bear hunters I saw bears shot with almost every premium bullet know to man, and with every thing from the 300 magnums to 416's. The effect was noticible even on big grizzlies when hit 180 or 200 grain Swift A-Frame out of the 30 caliber magnums leaving the muzzle at 2800-3000 fps was noticeable. The only bears I ever saw just drop dead in their tracks were hit with that combination.

 

[homewoodboy]

I shot an antelope with a 300 Berger from my Edge this past August; went thru him with a 2" exit hole. Still ran 150 yards.

The one bullet I have lost confidence in a the Barnes. I shot a grizzly bear a few years ago right behind his front leg as he was quartering away. His right leg (opposite side) flew up in the air and smacked to the ground, only to get up and run into a massive alder patch (like kilometers wide and long). It was very near dark, so my guide said we would return the next morning to fetch him. That night it rained all night and the only blood we found was on an upside down leaf.

I thought maybe I hit him too high. Eight months later I took a shot at a kudu with the same load. Kudu didn't flinch. PH said, "You hit him good, just wait."

Kudu starts to feed a bit, then walks away. PH says shoot him again, so I did and he dropped. When we skinned him we saw the Barnes completely penciled through its lungs. Made me wonder if that is what happened to my grizz bear the fall before. Who knows? That same bullet, a 225 .338 Barnes, has killed an African lion and leopard in Tanzania (pretty soft) as well as all kinds of plains game in three other Tanz hunts, two in Namibia, one in Zim (although I did shoot my leopard on that hunt with a Hornady 225 cup and core), a pile of 6x6 elk, four moose in AK/BC and the Yukon, and god knows what else.

I guess if you hunt long enough, s*&t happens.

I had the same result with a whitetail this yr in 308. Barnes @ 100-110 yards broadside luckily hit high and clipped the spine. Tiny entrance and exit wound with minimal damage. That was my first shot with a Barnes and prob the last.

 

[Skimbleshanks]

I like Bergers. They work as you described. Ive never pushed them really fast at close range however. I think that is the concern and the reason for using a bonded bullet. If you're expecting shots from real close to kinda far with a sizable magnum then a bonded bullet might work well even though killing might not be as fast. Compared to a non bonded bullet going fast at 50 yards splashing and wounding an animal without making it to the vitals. No bullet is ideal for every situation. I like 175 Bergers from my 30-06 going a mid velocity. When and if I hunt with my 300RUM I will be looking for a heavier bullet, a "harder" or bonded bullet or most likely both.

 

[freddiej]

I shoot a 270 WSM and 270 Win for deer. I use 110 grain Barnes TTSX for up close shots. Prior to finding barnes bullets; I used to use Hornady 120 SST's. Both I would use without hesitation. for longer shots I would use 140 grain nosler accubond's with fair to good results but when I tried Berger 140 grain hunters I was very impressed.
For Elk I used 338 win mag with either Barnes 210's or 225's X-bullets (prior to the TSX line). after about 400 yards I went to 250 grain Hornady SST's for a bit better performance over the barnes. Now I see that Berger makes elite hunters in 0.338" 250 grain.. I will have to check those out.

 

[bubbaonpc]

Made the mistake of shooting a White Tail with bonded round at 100 yards...257 Rob.@ bout 2900 fps. Geezzz!! Never even flinched on first shot... so I fired a second...he turned and went up a bank...20 yards....stopped and looked at me. As I prepared for a third round...he ran straight up the mountain... stopped at bout 200 yards. I placed a third in him. He flinched and ran back down hill... dragging his offside leg..finally dropping. What should have taken 5 seconds, took 3 minutes.
When I cleaned him I observed 3 good shots...but 2 were pinholes. In and out. White Tails, in my area, just aren't tough enough for Bonded...maybe a shoulder shot...but taking lung shots were not the best use of those bonded bullets...and was not an ethical choice on my part. I didn't do my homework and the animal paid an unnecessary price. All because I wanted to try the NEW thing. I went back to SST and Ballistic Tips. As a reloader, I should have researched the bullet !
If I were hunting thick skinned, tougher game..The bonded would pay off.
I hope my mistake saves someone from doing the same. It cost my brother a 150 class deer that year...as we only found tiny drops to follow...then nothing. 165 gr 30 cal Elk loads are too tough for light skin, 170lb deer. Might as well been using FMJ !

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

Thank you all for your input on this subject.

Some of you mentioned the partition and I have used it successfully, but in order for it to expand I have to go through the shoulder and these deer are small enough as it is and dont want to loose any meat.

I have put several partitions on deer lungs and they behaved like the Accubonds did, not the damage or fast kill I want. In one case I had to put 3 partitions on a deer, 2 through the lungs and then a 3rd through the shoulder to put him down.

For shoulder shots they are hard to beat.

For me I had exactly the opposite performance. How heavy were your N Part? I would guess you are on the heavy side 160 175 range for you seeing minimum expansion. In my 7mm RM years ago I used light 140gr NP at 3300+ IIRC I can pretty much guarantee you would not have the same experience you described penciling through.. all my deer were DRT. And I don't shoot shoulders. Just a thought. Good topic