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Big Game Info Ballistics calculator.
- Thread starter 4ked Horn
- Start date
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klinkers
Active Member
By George I believe you've got it...
ricka0
Well-Known Member
Good questions - I was going to ask some of them myself. Let me conjecture on momentum. I dominated 500 yard free hand silhouettes at my range (back in 85) because my buddie who was a better shot usually couldn't knock the pig over with his custom .243 - my cheap0 30-06 had no problems. This is a pure momentum issue.
The real answer: It's trivial to compute and is basic physics so why not list it.
I really like the ideal game size too.
The real answer: It's trivial to compute and is basic physics so why not list it.
I really like the ideal game size too.
Klinkers I had been messing around on the advanced ballistics calculator and when I refound your basic calculator I saw that the parameter labels overlapped the input windows. I there something wrong with my computer settings that would cause this? I have mo problem with any other page in your site.
Is your recoil calculator only set up for calculating black powder?
I have to say I really like the advanced calculator. I can show drops by the yard for the full amount of useable adjustment on my scope (about 47 MOA) which takes me out to over 1300 yards.
I can copy and paste into excell for a drop sheet that assigns a yardage to every click of my scope. It prints out to big for a tape-on range card but it will be easily cut and glued in a notepad with index tabs for quick access for me or my spotter to call out adjustments after ranging.
I like having wind in MOA + clicks. Thanks. Leads (or wind)in MIls would be another cool thing for coyotes since they dont often stop moving when they are circling in down wind. I would like to know that if they are trottong in at around 200 yards I should hold in front 4 mils but if they are walking I only need 1.5 mils lead. I can put in the corect MPH if you can add Mils to be a windage option.
I think you have a real nice calculator and I'm glad you plopped a link to it here at LRH.
Is your recoil calculator only set up for calculating black powder?
I have to say I really like the advanced calculator. I can show drops by the yard for the full amount of useable adjustment on my scope (about 47 MOA) which takes me out to over 1300 yards.
I can copy and paste into excell for a drop sheet that assigns a yardage to every click of my scope. It prints out to big for a tape-on range card but it will be easily cut and glued in a notepad with index tabs for quick access for me or my spotter to call out adjustments after ranging.
I like having wind in MOA + clicks. Thanks. Leads (or wind)in MIls would be another cool thing for coyotes since they dont often stop moving when they are circling in down wind. I would like to know that if they are trottong in at around 200 yards I should hold in front 4 mils but if they are walking I only need 1.5 mils lead. I can put in the corect MPH if you can add Mils to be a windage option.
I think you have a real nice calculator and I'm glad you plopped a link to it here at LRH.
klinkers
Active Member
To be real honest with you I don't remember what the problem with the basic calculator is for sure but it seems to me thatit has to do with larger than normal font settings and the method I used for the display doesn't handle it quite right. Ever since I started working on the advanced version the basic has been pretty much ignored.
The recoil calculator works for smokeless powder as well, just the set the powder type on "No adjustment". This was added to take into account the measurement of black powder and substitutes by volume rather than weight.
I'll work on the mils display when I get a chance. Right at the moment I've got it torn apart adding graphics.
Now that you've got that big long tape that you can put in a notebook, I have a couple questions for you. Do you even attempt to account for changes in temperature, altitude, incline, etc? When you start gettin' on out there I would think you'd need a lot of different charts for various combinations of conditions. These variables drove me to build the PDA solution.
The recoil calculator works for smokeless powder as well, just the set the powder type on "No adjustment". This was added to take into account the measurement of black powder and substitutes by volume rather than weight.
I'll work on the mils display when I get a chance. Right at the moment I've got it torn apart adding graphics.
Now that you've got that big long tape that you can put in a notebook, I have a couple questions for you. Do you even attempt to account for changes in temperature, altitude, incline, etc? When you start gettin' on out there I would think you'd need a lot of different charts for various combinations of conditions. These variables drove me to build the PDA solution.
4kedhorn,
This is goodgrouper, I am just logged in over at 7mmrhb's house and we were discussing the problem that we found with the altitude compensation, and we got on to LRH and saw that you hit the nail on the head! In your earlier post, you said that what you thought I was saying was indeed exactly what I have been trying so badly to explain all along.
The difference in drop for the varying altitudes must show the adjusted zero, and not keep it a constant zero. The zero as it is referred to, means absolutely nothing to a knob cranker who has just sighted in his gun at home, and now drives up to 10,000 feet and has a rockchuck staring at him from 1000 yards out. He wants to just crank in his MOA for the yardage off of a CORRECTED program and dump the chuck. He does not want to check to make sure his gun is still the blasted 3" high at 100 yards! WE NEED A PROGRAM THAT WILL ADJUST YOUR WHOLE TRAJECTORY (including your zero) FOR ALTITUDE CHANGES AND ANGLE SHOOTING ALL AT ONCE, AND ALL ON THE SAME PAGE!
We are just two dumb idiots (me and 7mmrhb) but we can see that all these fancy programs have this one HUGE flaw. We see that you need to be able to run a drop chart for someone at a given altitude that is different from the one that you sighted the gun in at, and have it be adjusted for that person so that he can just crank in the new MOA and dump his deer without us there.
I am so glad that you and JBM understand what I've been trying to say all along. I guess I just worded it badly so it was hard to understand, but now that we're all on the same page and have visualized the problem, maybe we can come up with a new program and format for knob cranking hunters like us to take afield. The advantage of a program like this (besides what has already been said) is that one could enter in hundreds of different elevations in the field, and it would be displayed instantly on the first page with corrected trajecories for each altitude one chooses to shoot at. This of course would be ideal for the hunter who has a pocket pc, but the ability to make lots of different drop charts at your home computer would be greatly accelerated so that you wouldn't have to custom build every drop chart for every altitude, thus making it very simple to make charts for hunters who don't know exactly what elevation they are going to be at when MR. Buck jumps out. You could crank out charts very rapidly for altitudes from 0 to 10,000 feet, and know that the MOA has been re-adjusted for each increase of altitude.
It is getting late, so I will explain all of my points of my ULTIMATE PROGRAM tomorrow for those of you who haven't played around with all those different programs I mentioned. Maybe, if I clear up all those points, someone here can develop the program. Your first two sales will be right here! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
This is goodgrouper, I am just logged in over at 7mmrhb's house and we were discussing the problem that we found with the altitude compensation, and we got on to LRH and saw that you hit the nail on the head! In your earlier post, you said that what you thought I was saying was indeed exactly what I have been trying so badly to explain all along.
The difference in drop for the varying altitudes must show the adjusted zero, and not keep it a constant zero. The zero as it is referred to, means absolutely nothing to a knob cranker who has just sighted in his gun at home, and now drives up to 10,000 feet and has a rockchuck staring at him from 1000 yards out. He wants to just crank in his MOA for the yardage off of a CORRECTED program and dump the chuck. He does not want to check to make sure his gun is still the blasted 3" high at 100 yards! WE NEED A PROGRAM THAT WILL ADJUST YOUR WHOLE TRAJECTORY (including your zero) FOR ALTITUDE CHANGES AND ANGLE SHOOTING ALL AT ONCE, AND ALL ON THE SAME PAGE!
We are just two dumb idiots (me and 7mmrhb) but we can see that all these fancy programs have this one HUGE flaw. We see that you need to be able to run a drop chart for someone at a given altitude that is different from the one that you sighted the gun in at, and have it be adjusted for that person so that he can just crank in the new MOA and dump his deer without us there.
I am so glad that you and JBM understand what I've been trying to say all along. I guess I just worded it badly so it was hard to understand, but now that we're all on the same page and have visualized the problem, maybe we can come up with a new program and format for knob cranking hunters like us to take afield. The advantage of a program like this (besides what has already been said) is that one could enter in hundreds of different elevations in the field, and it would be displayed instantly on the first page with corrected trajecories for each altitude one chooses to shoot at. This of course would be ideal for the hunter who has a pocket pc, but the ability to make lots of different drop charts at your home computer would be greatly accelerated so that you wouldn't have to custom build every drop chart for every altitude, thus making it very simple to make charts for hunters who don't know exactly what elevation they are going to be at when MR. Buck jumps out. You could crank out charts very rapidly for altitudes from 0 to 10,000 feet, and know that the MOA has been re-adjusted for each increase of altitude.
It is getting late, so I will explain all of my points of my ULTIMATE PROGRAM tomorrow for those of you who haven't played around with all those different programs I mentioned. Maybe, if I clear up all those points, someone here can develop the program. Your first two sales will be right here! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Now that you've got that big long tape that you can put in a notebook, I have a couple questions for you. Do you even attempt to account for changes in temperature, altitude, incline, etc?
[/ QUOTE ]
I know through the help of topo map programs what my altitude will be in the area I will be shooting. Your program makes it easy to print out a drop chart for the approximate temps and several inclines to refference. Most of the extreme long ranges for me are less than 1100 yards so the chart dosen't have to be longer than that and I have found that entering a 5 yard increment gives me yardage per click values for the huge majority of my shooting (less than 800 yards) which is just dandy for rockchucks. If I'm off and miss I usually have visual feedback for a follow up shot.(I'm speaking of rock chuck shooting in the desert here. NOT big game hunting.)
If I were hunting deer with my .308 I would keep it inside 600 yards which keeps the atmospheric conditions from affecting the trajectory beyond reason. Again I will know my altitudes +/- 500 feet and my temps for the weekend +/- 20 degrees. So exact atmospheric input is not so important. Because of the bigger kill zone and the shorter maximum range I can print out a drop chart with a 20 or 25 yard increment with more slope info (and windages of course) and it will all fit neatly on a card that I can tape to my stock. About 3"x5". Again your program speeds this up alot! Besides I dont mind playing around with it in the evening. Just part of getting ready.
When I get a PDA this will be easier still. Also keep in mind that the best drop charts are the ones that are created in the field by documenting the actual results of shooting that load out of that gun. These paper trajectories are only going to get us very close. As we find the program to be trustworthy (that it reflects the real world) we can use it for longer and longer shots on larger game. That is why the ultra long range hunters (1500 yards and more) usually take a sighter shot at a surface suitably similar to distance and slope of the game animal before aiming at the animal. They are checking the charts because the charts will only get you very close.
Now that you've got that big long tape that you can put in a notebook, I have a couple questions for you. Do you even attempt to account for changes in temperature, altitude, incline, etc?
[/ QUOTE ]
I know through the help of topo map programs what my altitude will be in the area I will be shooting. Your program makes it easy to print out a drop chart for the approximate temps and several inclines to refference. Most of the extreme long ranges for me are less than 1100 yards so the chart dosen't have to be longer than that and I have found that entering a 5 yard increment gives me yardage per click values for the huge majority of my shooting (less than 800 yards) which is just dandy for rockchucks. If I'm off and miss I usually have visual feedback for a follow up shot.(I'm speaking of rock chuck shooting in the desert here. NOT big game hunting.)
If I were hunting deer with my .308 I would keep it inside 600 yards which keeps the atmospheric conditions from affecting the trajectory beyond reason. Again I will know my altitudes +/- 500 feet and my temps for the weekend +/- 20 degrees. So exact atmospheric input is not so important. Because of the bigger kill zone and the shorter maximum range I can print out a drop chart with a 20 or 25 yard increment with more slope info (and windages of course) and it will all fit neatly on a card that I can tape to my stock. About 3"x5". Again your program speeds this up alot! Besides I dont mind playing around with it in the evening. Just part of getting ready.
When I get a PDA this will be easier still. Also keep in mind that the best drop charts are the ones that are created in the field by documenting the actual results of shooting that load out of that gun. These paper trajectories are only going to get us very close. As we find the program to be trustworthy (that it reflects the real world) we can use it for longer and longer shots on larger game. That is why the ultra long range hunters (1500 yards and more) usually take a sighter shot at a surface suitably similar to distance and slope of the game animal before aiming at the animal. They are checking the charts because the charts will only get you very close.
Goodgrouper. First call me Joe. Its easier to type.
Second, check out the sure shot part of this program. Enter all your data at standard conditions for sea level with a 100 yard zero and calculate a 1000 yard target distance. Then change the altitude to 10000 ft and re calculate. It will change your zero distance to reflect the elongated trajectory. Try it and see what you think.
[ QUOTE ]
The zero as it is referred to, means absolutely nothing to a knob cranker who has just sighted in his gun at home, and now drives up to 10,000 feet and has a rockchuck staring at him from 1000 yards out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. For all it matters I might as well zero my rifle at 25 yards. The main reason I don't is because with a 100 yard zero I am within 1/2 inch from 50 to 125 yards which is still where a good share of shooting occurs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The other reason I dont zero at 25 yards is I can see a one click adjustment at 100 yards. At 25 yards the adjustment equals 1/16 inch so it is harder to know exactly how far off your zero really is and how much that will affect your trajectory coresponding to the chart at 800 yards.
Second, check out the sure shot part of this program. Enter all your data at standard conditions for sea level with a 100 yard zero and calculate a 1000 yard target distance. Then change the altitude to 10000 ft and re calculate. It will change your zero distance to reflect the elongated trajectory. Try it and see what you think.
[ QUOTE ]
The zero as it is referred to, means absolutely nothing to a knob cranker who has just sighted in his gun at home, and now drives up to 10,000 feet and has a rockchuck staring at him from 1000 yards out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. For all it matters I might as well zero my rifle at 25 yards. The main reason I don't is because with a 100 yard zero I am within 1/2 inch from 50 to 125 yards which is still where a good share of shooting occurs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The other reason I dont zero at 25 yards is I can see a one click adjustment at 100 yards. At 25 yards the adjustment equals 1/16 inch so it is harder to know exactly how far off your zero really is and how much that will affect your trajectory coresponding to the chart at 800 yards.
klinkers
Active Member
What you are describing is exactly the intent of the PDA program I wrote. It downloads your zero data saved from the ballistics calculator to provide the base. You then enter the range, incline and current atmosperic conditions and it displays the comeups both elevation and windage to take the shot.
One of the biggest problems I've encountered to date is the accuracy of the input parameters for the initial load definition. If you tweak your inputs a little so the model matches real world results on the range, it does an excellent job of calculating the comeups in the field with good input data.
One of the biggest problems I've encountered to date is the accuracy of the input parameters for the initial load definition. If you tweak your inputs a little so the model matches real world results on the range, it does an excellent job of calculating the comeups in the field with good input data.
I wonder if this is why GG wants to create his own BCs? I noticed that by changing the drag function from a G1 to a G5 I changed my 400 yard come ups two clicks which is a full 2 inches at that distance. That is exactly the difference between what I printed out from Daves program (using a default G1 function) and what I actually shot in the field. My chart said 8+2 and thats what I cranked in for my first shot. I hit an inch low from the top of the hanging bowling ball. It fell because I only had the hook screwed in one inch. I rehung the ball and came down 2 clicks to exactly 8 MOA. Next shot hit dead center and the Bowling ball swung back and forth the way it's supposed to.
I would have hit it in the middle the first time if I tweaked only the drag function. I made no change to my BC. Just entered what the factory engeneers said it should be.
I would have hit it in the middle the first time if I tweaked only the drag function. I made no change to my BC. Just entered what the factory engeneers said it should be.
klinkers
Active Member
The way I normally use the calculator is to zero the rifle the way I want and then shoot group at 200 and 300, unfortunately that's the length of my range. I record the conditions as closely as possible and the the impact point of the various groups. I then set the atmospheric parameters, the velocity from the chronograph, and the BC from the manufacturer if known. Then I play with BC values and Drag functions for pointy boattails till the model matches my range testing. If you have the equipment to gather data to calculate your BCs great, if not trial and error will get you there.
ricka0
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
calculate your BCs
[/ QUOTE ]
reconditioned Chronys are only $50 IIRC
all you need is two Chronys (or one and do some statistics)
Once you've got your the load calibrated to your program you should get good predictions.
calculate your BCs
[/ QUOTE ]
reconditioned Chronys are only $50 IIRC
all you need is two Chronys (or one and do some statistics)
Once you've got your the load calibrated to your program you should get good predictions.
goodgrouper
Well-Known Member
Joe,
I too have tinkered with drag functions to match what I have seen in the field. This is indeed the reason why the ultimate program would have the ability to enter in your own bc that you find with two chronos and also for tweeking the drag functions to match what your personal bc's are.
I have tested bc's at my home range here (4800 feet) and have had them be different from the manufacturers bc's every time. If the program can be tweeked for different drag functions to match actual field adjustments, it can still work if you use the factory bc's instead of personal ones.
I truly believe that if we have the right program, and the conditions are favorable, we could have first round hits at close to a mile. All you would have to do is:
Have an accurate rifle.
Have a good load with a standard deviation in the single digits.
Have two chronos so BC's could be figured.
Have a good rangfinder.
Have some practice time, and wa la. Your gong could be swinging on the first round! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I too have tinkered with drag functions to match what I have seen in the field. This is indeed the reason why the ultimate program would have the ability to enter in your own bc that you find with two chronos and also for tweeking the drag functions to match what your personal bc's are.
I have tested bc's at my home range here (4800 feet) and have had them be different from the manufacturers bc's every time. If the program can be tweeked for different drag functions to match actual field adjustments, it can still work if you use the factory bc's instead of personal ones.
I truly believe that if we have the right program, and the conditions are favorable, we could have first round hits at close to a mile. All you would have to do is:
Have an accurate rifle.
Have a good load with a standard deviation in the single digits.
Have two chronos so BC's could be figured.
Have a good rangfinder.
Have some practice time, and wa la. Your gong could be swinging on the first round! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
GoodGrouper. I guess I have never even considered trying to figure out a BC. I take it for granted that the published ones are what you get. I also have tweaked these in ballistic programs to nudge the numbers a tad up or down.
Tell me, How do you compute this and why use 2 chronos? Would 3 be better?
Klink, this reminds me. You might consider changing the Chrono distance input from feet to yards. Looks like I may not be the only one that puts a chrono out at 100+ yards.
Tell me, How do you compute this and why use 2 chronos? Would 3 be better?
Klink, this reminds me. You might consider changing the Chrono distance input from feet to yards. Looks like I may not be the only one that puts a chrono out at 100+ yards.
