Best grain bullet for 300 RUM

[RockyMtnMT]

I'm with you. Reason I'm shooting a bullet that is really too heavy for deer at 1k is past experience with tissue destruction. Super high velocity is fine unless you have an angle where you encounter heavy bone. The bone explodes and becomes secondary projectiles that can make a deer look like a rabbit shot with a swift. Your bullets may somehow get around this and if they do I'm all ears. Tack is evolving so rapidly experience may not be the best teacher but I am a good student.

You are correct about the bone. You can't get around the bone fragments. The difference in soft pure copper and conventional lead core bullets is huge when it comes to meat damage. Even the bone fragments stay large enough to not cause the meat to jelly like lead does. The soft copper alloy that we use causes very little meat damage even with high vel impacts. Typically we find the blood that is in the meat to be contained in the membrane between muscles and can be simply scraped off with a knife. The shed weight of pure copper stays in a few pieces not the mist that lead does. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that our bullet won't ruin meat. Our bullets ruin significantly less meat. The lead that is shed from impact with lead core bullets appears to spray like a liquid. The higher the impact vel the worse the problem, so the solution is to shoot slower in order to more control or contain the amount of meat damage from lead. Back in the day when the only rifle I had was a 30-06 shooting 180g lead core bullets of varying flavors and losing a deer shoulder to blood shot meat when I did not impact the shoulder with the shot made me sick to my stomach. This one thing was the greatest driving force that culminated in us making our own bullets. Blowing animals apart is good when shooting varmints not when I am intending to eat the animal. I know that folks will say that lead doesn't spray through the meat. If it is not then I don't know how to explain the exponentially higher amount of meat damage caused by lead core bullet compared to pure copper when all other things are equivalent. In my life I have eaten more game taken with lead bullets than game taken with pure copper bullets and, as far as I know, I am still ok. But if I go to a restaurant and they offer me the choice between two glasses of water, one lead free and the other containing "safe levels of lead", I will choose the lead free every time. I can not come up with a reason to consume lead when I don't have to. Remember, lead consumption was not what drove me to find a better bullet. It was meat damage. I found a way to control meat damage and have excellent terminal performance, and it happens to be lead free.

This site is a long range hunting forum and I am not lost to that. I am a long range hunter and have been now for over 10 years. I am not lost to the fact that in a given twist the pure copper bullet will not stabilize at the same weight that a lead core bullet can. This causes the copper bullet to give up potential bc as weight is the greatest contributor to bc. A 10" twist in xxx caliber will stabilize a heavier bullet in lead than than pure copper. This is due to the density of the two materials. Only one way to make a bullet heavier, it has to get longer. Example, our 30cal 181g Hammer Hunter is physically the size of 200g+ lead core projectiles. Our 181g Hammer Hunter has a good bc but it is not as good as the heavier lead core bullets. We can run the Hammer significantly faster than the lead bullets. It is now the rabbit and the tortoise race. The tortoise is going to eventually pass the rabbit. More often than not, this happens farther down range than the hunter or rifle system is capable of shooting. As I said earlier in the thread the slower higher bc bullet is absolutely inferior to the faster, flatter, higher impact vel, less meat damage, non toxic, pure copper bullet, at short to fairly long range. In most chamberings the bc advantage of the heavier slower lead core bullet isn't until past 800-1000y and in almost all of them not until past 500y.

We can get better bc by making smaller hollow points and stretching the stability factor, but all of this comes with a sacrifice in terminal performance/increase in potential bullet failure, and we simply are not will to make that sacrifice. Nor are we willing to pedal that to our customers in order to increase our sales. I have yet to get a call from a customer claiming that our bullet failed. I dread that day as I am sure it will come, but trust me we will do everything we can on our end to make sure it doesn't.

Got a little long on that one. Sorry guys.

Steve

 

[Orange Dust]

You are correct about the bone. You can't get around the bone fragments. The difference in soft pure copper and conventional lead core bullets is huge when it comes to meat damage. Even the bone fragments stay large enough to not cause the meat to jelly like lead does. The soft copper alloy that we use causes very little meat damage even with high vel impacts. Typically we find the blood that is in the meat to be contained in the membrane between muscles and can be simply scraped off with a knife. The shed weight of pure copper stays in a few pieces not the mist that lead does. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that our bullet won't ruin meat. Our bullets ruin significantly less meat. The lead that is shed from impact with lead core bullets appears to spray like a liquid. The higher the impact vel the worse the problem, so the solution is to shoot slower in order to more control or contain the amount of meat damage from lead. Back in the day when the only rifle I had was a 30-06 shooting 180g lead core bullets of varying flavors and losing a deer shoulder to blood shot meat when I did not impact the shoulder with the shot made me sick to my stomach. This one thing was the greatest driving force that culminated in us making our own bullets. Blowing animals apart is good when shooting varmints not when I am intending to eat the animal. I know that folks will say that lead doesn't spray through the meat. If it is not then I don't know how to explain the exponentially higher amount of meat damage caused by lead core bullet compared to pure copper when all other things are equivalent. In my life I have eaten more game taken with lead bullets than game taken with pure copper bullets and, as far as I know, I am still ok. But if I go to a restaurant and they offer me the choice between two glasses of water, one lead free and the other containing "safe levels of lead", I will choose the lead free every time. I can not come up with a reason to consume lead when I don't have to. Remember, lead consumption was not what drove me to find a better bullet. It was meat damage. I found a way to control meat damage and have excellent terminal performance, and it happens to be lead free.

This site is a long range hunting forum and I am not lost to that. I am a long range hunter and have been now for over 10 years. I am not lost to the fact that in a given twist the pure copper bullet will not stabilize at the same weight that a lead core bullet can. This causes the copper bullet to give up potential bc as weight is the greatest contributor to bc. A 10" twist in xxx caliber will stabilize a heavier bullet in lead than than pure copper. This is due to the density of the two materials. Only one way to make a bullet heavier, it has to get longer. Example, our 30cal 181g Hammer Hunter is physically the size of 200g+ lead core projectiles. Our 181g Hammer Hunter has a good bc but it is not as good as the heavier lead core bullets. We can run the Hammer significantly faster than the lead bullets. It is now the rabbit and the tortoise race. The tortoise is going to eventually pass the rabbit. More often than not, this happens farther down range than the hunter or rifle system is capable of shooting. As I said earlier in the thread the slower higher bc bullet is absolutely inferior to the faster, flatter, higher impact vel, less meat damage, non toxic, pure copper bullet, at short to fairly long range. In most chamberings the bc advantage of the heavier slower lead core bullet isn't until past 800-1000y and in almost all of them not until past 500y.

We can get better bc by making smaller hollow points and stretching the stability factor, but all of this comes with a sacrifice in terminal performance/increase in potential bullet failure, and we simply are not will to make that sacrifice. Nor are we willing to pedal that to our customers in order to increase our sales. I have yet to get a call from a customer claiming that our bullet failed. I dread that day as I am sure it will come, but trust me we will do everything we can on our end to make sure it doesn't.

Got a little long on that one. Sorry guys.

Steve

Sitting in a deer stand in the rain. Fun of opening day..soaked. roof is rotten. Here is my experience with this, and it is very old data. Been shooting across bean fields nearly 50 years with a few trips out west throne in and several to Canada. Years ago nosler came out with a new bullet called a ballistic tip. Thought they would shoot far so I loaded some in 150gr for my 300 why that were really too hot. As luck would have it I was sitting on the edge of a field and a big 10 point ran behind me at less than 20 yards. Slang through him and broke 3 legs. No bs. Bullet hit near shoulder which blew up there was an exit hole where the off shoulder should have been and blew up the far hip. Exit hole the size of 1970'S Large pizza. Went back to 200 great partitions. Next was an ackleyized 8mm Remington magnum. Tried 175 sierras at a speed I would not print. Shot a coyote at about 100yds. Closest thing to vaporized I've ever seen. Was headed to the field so I knew I needed to be careful.shot was an 8pt buck at about a hundred. he was facing me. I whistled to get him to hold his head up, and put one right under his chin in the neck. Exploded every vertebra in his body all the way to the last one in his tail. Opened him up from the top like a space shuttle. Total loss. Changed to Warren Jensen's fantastic J26 in 210 gr. At 3200 they were like Thor's Hammer. Did a lot of control shooting with that gun and it was amazing until Warreslr stopped making the bullets. When barnes started making their all copper bullets I tried them. Could not get them much closer than about 200fps slower than same weight lead and abandoned the project without trying on game.

 

[Orange Dust]

Spelling on phone is pitiful. will wait to next week at work. Sorry guys

 

[RockyMtnMT]

No sweat Orange. I totally understand the bt. Those came out and that was the beginning of my journey to find a better bullet. I remember my uncle shooting a muley doe with his 06 at about a 100y and the exit looked like a basket ball excited the doe. I just knew there was a better way.

Steve

 

[Orange Dust]

No sweat Orange. I totally understand the bt. Those came out and that was the beginning of my journey to find a better bullet. I remember my uncle shooting a muley doe with his 06 at about a 100y and the exit looked like a basket ball excited the doe. I just knew there was a better way.

Steve

That 26" weatherby would push them over 3600. The 8Mm was faster. I'm still open to trying again though. Things have changed a lot and never shot one of your bullets, much less at game.

 

[Hatrick]

Spelling on phone is pitiful. will wait to next week at work. Sorry guys

Turn off the spellcheck.

 

[Orange Dust]

I am wet and cold. My 1600b will only range about 500 it's raining so. But I am determined to tell the OP what a 190 ablr will do to a deer with a rum. We shall see.

 

[Hatrick]

I am wet and cold. My 1600b will only range about 500 it's raining so. But I am determined to tell the OP what a 190 ablr will do to a deer with a rum. We shall see.[/QUOTE

You are my hero. I envy you. I start this week in PA. Muzzleloader and then senior and youth end of week.

 

[Varminator 911]

The copper bullets must be accurate now days. Aren't they shooting a lot of them in very long range competition? If so that means they have both high bc and accuracy potential.

Surely someone will soon be making high bc copper hunting bullets. I haven't shot Badlands Precision 338 caliper super bulldozers but I know others are trying them. The 240 gn is 0.7 bc and the 270 gn 0.8. The owner told me he's redesigning the lineup for higher bc and even better terminal performance. The super bulldozers are copper with a long radius ogive, a good sized hollow point, and very pointed aluminum tip. The aluminum tip allows for a bigger hollow point for improved terminal performance at low speeds and much higher bc than an open point.

I'd think that type of bullet could be designed with better exterior and terminal ballistic performance than the current high bc Berger and Sierra lineup. Build the bullets as long as possible for a 7 twist, with a short bearing surface and very long pointed nose. In 7mm say about 140 grains with a very long radius ogive. Make the ogive long and pointed enough and a 0.8+ bc should be possible at that weight. The lower weight and short bearing surface should allow a 300-400 fps advantage over the 197 Sierra Matcking. Equal bc and much higher velocity equals much better performance.

Where is my thinking off base? Would those long nosed bullets not shoot well?

 

[Orange Dust]

The copper bullets must be accurate now days. Aren't they shooting a lot of them in very long range competition? If so that means they have both high bc and accuracy potential.

Surely someone will soon be making high bc copper hunting bullets. I haven't shot Badlands Precision 338 caliper super bulldozers but I know others are trying them. The 240 gn is 0.7 bc and the 270 gn 0.8. The owner told me he's redesigning the lineup for higher bc and even better terminal performance. The super bulldozers are copper with a long radius ogive, a good sized hollow point, and very pointed aluminum tip.

I'd think that type of bullet could be designed with better exterior and terminal ballistic performance than the current high bc Berger and Sierra lineup. Build the bullets as long as possible for a 7 twist, with a short bearing surface and very long pointed nose. In 7mm say about 140 grains with a very long radius ogive and ~0.8+ bc. The lower weight and short bearing surface should allow a 300-400 fps advantage over the 197 Sierra Matcking. Equal bc and much higher velocity equals much better performance.

Where is my thinking off base? Would those long nosed bullets not shoot well?

Answer is above my pay grade, but I'll try a box of anything

 

[Orange Dust]

Sounds a lot like the Jensen j30something when he changed the name to lost river.

 

[Varminator 911]

I shot those Jensen bullets in a 300 Jarrett. I believe they were copper base about half the bullet length and bonded lead core up front. The shape and bc were about like the other bullets of that day. Very tough bullets for shooting thru the biggest animals.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

The tip is a plug in the hollow point that must get out of theway in order for fluid to enter the hollow point and cause the bullet to expand from the inside out.

We will not use a tip. I'll never say never but I'm thinking never. Sharp pointed bullets are for targets.

Steve

 

[Varminator 911]

It would seem to me that it all depends on how tough and thick the al tip was. If it's solid al that might be an issue. If a hollow al tip I'd think you could easily make it tough enough to enjoy the ride and soft enough to easily crush upon impact. Those bullets could be made with a much bigger hollow point than yours. You may well be right if the tip is solid aluminum. I was visualizing a hollow al tip.

I guess we'll see if the super bulldozers open up on game or not.

Steve if you don't want a tip why not at least increase the length of the ogive on some of your bullets. Sierra has moved up to 27 radius ogive. Why couldn't you go 27 or higher?