Best die for bumping shoulder

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Blacktail-hunter, Jun 3, 2018.

  1. Blacktail-hunter

    Blacktail-hunter Active Member

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    so I’m new to reloading and wondering what the best die for bumping the shoulders back on brass? Thanks in advance
     
  2. STEEL SLINGER

    STEEL SLINGER Well-Known Member

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    Redding makes a "body die" that full length resizes and bumps the shoulder back too. I use it for several calibers and it works well.
     
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  3. gohring3006

    gohring3006 Well-Known Member

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    Any of the full length dies will bump the shoulder, I prefer either the Redding body die, or one of the full length bushing dies without the expander.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
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  4. Blacktail-hunter

    Blacktail-hunter Active Member

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    Is there anyway I can size the neck and shoulder of the brass without touching the body of the brass?
     
  5. bigedp51

    bigedp51 Well-Known Member

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    A Forster bushing bump die will size the neck and if needed bump the shoulder.

    Forster Precision Plus Bushing Bump Neck Sizer Die with 3 Bushings
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...s-bushing-bump-neck-sizer-die-with-3-bushings

    This die comes with three bushings in .002 increments, example the .308 Winchester die will have .336, .334, .332 bushings.
     
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  6. MagnumManiac

    MagnumManiac Well-Known Member

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    No, you can size the neck separately, or size the shoulder AND body separately, but not only size the shoulder without sizing the body too.

    Partial FL sizing with a bushing die is probably what most advise, but I use Forster FL Benchrest dies with expander and honed necks if needed.
    Whidden can make custom dies that match your chamber print or fired brass.

    Cheers.
    :)
     
  7. bigedp51

    bigedp51 Well-Known Member

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    double post
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  8. bigedp51

    bigedp51 Well-Known Member

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    The Forster bushing bump die will size the neck and bump the shoulder back "WITHOUT" touching the case body. The Forster bushing bump die does not have a expander. So you either turn the case necks or use a expander die if the neck are not turned to push the irregularities to the outside of the neck.

    NOTE, Redding recommends using a bushing .002 smaller if the necks are not turned and use their expander that comes with the die.

    Also at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies.

    Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Dies
    https://www.forsterproducts.com/product/bushing-bump-neck-sizing-dies/

    The Forster Bench Rest® Bushing Bump Sizing Die brings an advanced precision level to hand loaders by allowing you to precisely control the amount of neck sizing tension in your reloaded cartridge brass. The Die improves accuracy and prolongs case life because the necks are sized down as little as necessary while still “bumping” the shoulder of the case to maintain overall case concentricity and cartridge headspace length. Best of all, it prevents overworking the necks and allows you to control the amount of neck tension for your bullet seating operation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
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  9. Lonewolf74

    Lonewolf74 Well-Known Member

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    I would recommend Forster FL dies...with there setup you don't have to be afraid of the expander ball like most ppl are.

    Second best setup would be a Lee collet neck die and Redding body die.

    I would not recommend the Forster bushing bump die. Bushing dies are not the best to begin with, the way they work can cause run out. With the bushing bump die this is exacerbated because the case body isn't fully supported. In short the Forster full length die will produce the least run out, the Forster bushing bump die can potentially produce the most.
     
  10. L.Sherm

    L.Sherm Well-Known Member

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    I believe if you "float" the bushing and use a floating expander it helps alot.
     
  11. bigedp51

    bigedp51 Well-Known Member

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    Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers and neck turned brass.
    If you reduce the neck diameter .004 or more it will induce neck runout. This is because the bushing floats and can move from side to side and even tilt. Redding recommends to reduce the neck diameter in two steps to reduce neck runout if reducing .004 or more.

    And as posted before Whidden stated they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies. And Whidden does not make neck sizing dies and this should tell you something.
     
  12. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    You certainly can bump shoulders without sizing case bodies, and it's done with full body support(slight squeeze).
    And bushing dies can be used to make ammo as straight as any.
    But there is more to attributes of sizing than just runout.

    I personally would never FL size necks, and I would never seat bullet bearing all the way down to donut area or neck/shoulder junction. Doing either greatly increases tension variance.
    I believe best is to partial length size necks with a bushing 2thou under loaded neck ODs. You can adjust tension by the LENGTH of this grip on bullet bearing, as many bushing dies allow this adjustment.

    Keep in mind, interference fit is NOT tension.
    Tension is spring back grip against .xxx area of seated bullet bearing. Spring back is also 1thou max. So sizing 2thou under cal will spring back to ~1thou under cal, and seating a bullet in this expands the neck to cal with ~1thou(max) spring back grip.
    If you size down to cause interference in excess of this, you are only using your bullet to re-expand right back up to prior described, so grip is as prior described. That excess interference only served to increase bullet seating forces, and with that you increase seating length variances.

    Now if you size a length of neck greater than seated bearing, then seating will fail to expand that portion at the bullet bearing-base junction. This is typically donut area, and you've now brought this grip to bear/bind against the bearing-base junction.
    This, creating higher seating force and tension, but also higher variances of it.
    Perhaps this leads to a mob compelled to frequently anneal necks, which makes me wonder why they were so motivated to FL size necks to begin with.
    After all, annealing greatly reduces tension, and anything less than perfect annealing increases tension variance. Lotta tail chasing there..

    With a CUSTOM FL die, that sizes minimally, you can make very straight ammo.
    With a CUSTOM bushing die, that also sizes minimally, you can make very straight ammo. The key factor here is minimal sizing, and brass that is very low in thickness variance.
    There is wide use of the misnomer 'FL Bushing Die'. But as far as I know, there is only one die maker who actually does this, with shoulder included in the bushing. The others related are actually Body-Bushing dies, that partial length size necks. They are not FL Bushing Dies.
    You can also separate dies into their specialties, with each custom if desired.
    I use custom Redding body dies for shoulder bumping only, and Wilson neck dies for partial length bushing sizing. I don't choose cartridges and/or loads to cause a need for body sizing. This provides many benefits for me(reloading-wise).
     
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  13. L.Sherm

    L.Sherm Well-Known Member

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    Whidden states they "typically " see more concentric cases with non bushing does not saying you can't with bushing dies.
     
  14. bigedp51

    bigedp51 Well-Known Member

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    With off the shelf factory rifles the vast majority of case necks will expand more than .004 when fired. And when reducing the neck diameter with a bushing die this can induce neck runout.

    And why Redding recommends reducing the neck diameter in two steps to reduce induced neck runout with a bushing die.

    Redding also recommends if the case necks are not turned to use a bushing .002 smaller and use the expander that comes with the die.

    Bottom line, a full length non-bushing die supports the case body and case neck and will produce the most concentric cases.

    Below are just some of the dies I tested and the Forster full length die produced cases with the least neck runout. And the neck sizing dies produce the most neck runout and the Forster bushing bump die produced the most neck runout.

    I also tested .243 Redding bushing dies vs the Forster full length dies and got the same results. And there is a reason why die hard neck sizers are using the Lee collet die vs bushing dies.

    [​IMG]

    And at the 6.5 Guys website they now prefer Forster full length dies vs bushing dies.



    NOTE, with my Forster full length dies and my brass the necks did not need to be honed.

    FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
    http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

    Below dies vary in size along with your chambers.

    Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
    http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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