Berger close range impact

[MachV]

Hunt long enough and butcher your own critters and you'll learn there aint no absolutes with bullets, have had some weird chit happen over the years.
My personal belief is if a hollow point can blow open it can blow shut (fmj) but maybe that's just my luck??
I prefer the amax (eldx) for long range work mainly because they have been easier to tune a load.
Hard to beat the old Partitions inside of 500 yards but just like most peoples experience with the close shots and Bergers stay away from the meat.
You guessed it I aint a Berger fan, not inside a thousand yards anyway.

 

[reloaderlen]

My whole point of starting this thread was to say that I have never had Berger bullets fail me.
That I had never had a chance to shoot anything close with Berger.
I have read so many negative comments about them and their use at close range.
I took a close range shot and got Excellent results.
I'm totally satisfied!
I don't buy load manuals for every bullet manufacturer. I have a Speer from the 80s and the two latest editions from Nosler.
I haven't lost a animal in many many years.
It doses not matter if it's a Rem Core
Or Nosler Accubond put them in the right place the animal is coming down.
I know guys who complain about shot placement and have never killed a live animal only paper
Others who complain about shot placement but them selves shoot deer with a bow only for the animal to go off and die a slow death .
Don't take that wrong I shoot them with Bows too takes more skill than the rifles I use. Just my opinion

To all those who liked my post or have said thanks , you're most welcome.
To all who have criticized you are entitled to your opinion and that's why we have this great country
For freedom of speech.
I Tip My hat to Len for such a fabulous Fourm to learn and share our Experiences.

 

[N.Y.Arnie]

OMG men are we ethical sportsman or killers in the forest. From what I have read here it would appear numbers are more to brag about then clean ethical well placed shots. If you want to avoid the butcher and turn shoulders into hamburger then stick with the explosive uncontrolled and reliable fragmentation bullets. I have argued this with a good friend of mine for years. Shock kills !!!! Period. Shock is best created by using the best bullet in the best weight for the particular animal you are pursuing. Speed and weight combined with a controlled expansion through heart and or lungs is what is needed. My buddy of many years loves the ballistic tip and has killed quite a few deer with them but always gets a raised eyebrow upon entering the butcher shop. Usually the remark of what in the hell did you shoot this deer with. I have told him one day a buck of a lifetime will be there in front of him and if that is the day the BT fails how is he going to feel. I have tested rifles from 22 cal up to 30 and have found shock turns the vitals to jelly and weight retention is your best guarantee to accomplish that result all the rest is about odds. Out of all the Barnes triple shocks and Nosler partitions we have shot deer with, we only have recovered one of each of the bullets. Both were head on collision, both died quickly, and the Nosler retained 98% and the Barnes 94% of their original weight. Those bullets did what they were supposed to in extreme circumstances. Remember guys we have a responsibility to our new sportsman and to our selves to set a good example to others.

 

[FIGJAM]

Remember guys we have a responsibility to our new sportsman and to our selves to set a good example to others.

And you are saying we do this by only using monos and partitions to kill game?

 

[Deleted member 25294]

OMG men are we ethical sportsman or killers in the forest. From what I have read here it would appear numbers are more to brag about then clean ethical well placed shots. If you want to avoid the butcher and turn shoulders into hamburger then stick with the explosive uncontrolled and reliable fragmentation bullets. I have argued this with a good friend of mine for years. Shock kills !!!! Period. Shock is best created by using the best bullet in the best weight for the particular animal you are pursuing. Speed and weight combined with a controlled expansion through heart and or lungs is what is needed. My buddy of many years loves the ballistic tip and has killed quite a few deer with them but always gets a raised eyebrow upon entering the butcher shop. Usually the remark of what in the hell did you shoot this deer with. I have told him one day a buck of a lifetime will be there in front of him and if that is the day the BT fails how is he going to feel. I have tested rifles from 22 cal up to 30 and have found shock turns the vitals to jelly and weight retention is your best guarantee to accomplish that result all the rest is about odds. Out of all the Barnes triple shocks and Nosler partitions we have shot deer with, we only have recovered one of each of the bullets. Both were head on collision, both died quickly, and the Nosler retained 98% and the Barnes 94% of their original weight. Those bullets did what they were supposed to in extreme circumstances. Remember guys we have a responsibility to our new sportsman and to our selves to set a good example to others.

Forget it man..
Some people just make up their minds and that's that.
I appreciate your ethics, and I can proudly say that I have never intentionally shot an animal in the shoulder with an explosive bullet just to satisfy my curiosity.
Pretty disgusting IMO
I'm out fellas good luck

 

[bigngreen]

OMG men are we ethical sportsman or killers in the forest. From what I have read here it would appear numbers are more to brag about then clean ethical well placed shots. If you want to avoid the butcher and turn shoulders into hamburger then stick with the explosive uncontrolled and reliable fragmentation bullets. I have argued this with a good friend of mine for years. Shock kills !!!! Period. Shock is best created by using the best bullet in the best weight for the particular animal you are pursuing. Speed and weight combined with a controlled expansion through heart and or lungs is what is needed. My buddy of many years loves the ballistic tip and has killed quite a few deer with them but always gets a raised eyebrow upon entering the butcher shop. Usually the remark of what in the hell did you shoot this deer with. I have told him one day a buck of a lifetime will be there in front of him and if that is the day the BT fails how is he going to feel. I have tested rifles from 22 cal up to 30 and have found shock turns the vitals to jelly and weight retention is your best guarantee to accomplish that result all the rest is about odds. Out of all the Barnes triple shocks and Nosler partitions we have shot deer with, we only have recovered one of each of the bullets. Both were head on collision, both died quickly, and the Nosler retained 98% and the Barnes 94% of their original weight. Those bullets did what they were supposed to in extreme circumstances. Remember guys we have a responsibility to our new sportsman and to our selves to set a good example to others.

I actually ran a wildgame processing shop, I've cut many, many thousands of head of animals and that is the EXACT reason I use what I do and a big part of why I find it worth testing bullets to see if there is something better out there. Loosing a game animal is FAR more wasteful of meat than loosing a couple extra pounds with a more lethal bullet. The Berger I have zero compromise over when I shot Barnes, entrance is typically about the same meat loss as I saw with Barnes but the lethality is so far beyond what I was seeing before I'll never shoot Barnes again at heavy game because of the wasted meat!! Meat loss is a big part of why I don't like a bullet with point mechanically initiating expansion, I want massive expansion in the core to destroy as much blood vessels and lung as possible because shock kills BUMPKIS!!

 

[jlreff]

Totally disagree with you about Barnes and meat loss, that's why I went to them. Just like with a bow put it in the right spot you have no problems. I've had as fast as with a rifle at times. So you have to track a little isn't that part of hunting.

 

[bigngreen]

I shot a LOT of Barnes fully fan boy till I realized how many elk I have hit well and had no indication of a hit or after looking for hours for anything indicating a hit I lost them, I watched a cow elk tip over in a herd after 45 minutes with a solid lung hit, I hit another cow in the shoulder and the Barnes never made it in and deflected forward out the front of her shoulder, knocked her out thinking she was dead but she picked her head up when I got there, the only reason I got her was the bullet exited the front of her shoulder and cut her jugular that she bleed to much to stand but I still had to kill her with a knife, another cow hit her 6 times in the front end and still killed her with a knife, I can keep going, we all shot Barnes and we started packing 22 lr pistols so when they were alive when we got there we didn't have to use a knife. I changed to Bergers mid season and have never shot an animal a second time with them and never had one make it out of sight, no longer pack a pistol, all I changed was my bullet and it was a whole new world, not a single one of use still shoots Barnes which is a hard change for a Fan boy but the evidence made us change! If you have good luck with them awesome, you would be dumb to change but if they don't work why stay with them, what every a guy gets game dead the fastest and cleanest with it whats best for him!

 

[jlreff]

I shot a LOT of Barnes fully fan boy till I realized how many elk I have hit well and had no indication of a hit or after looking for hours for anything indicating a hit I lost them, I watched a cow elk tip over in a herd after 45 minutes with a solid lung hit, I hit another cow in the shoulder and the Barnes never made it in and deflected forward out the front of her shoulder, knocked her out thinking she was dead but she picked her head up when I got there, the only reason I got her was the bullet exited the front of her shoulder and cut her jugular that she bleed to much to stand but I still had to kill her with a knife, another cow hit her 6 times in the front end and still killed her with a knife, I can keep going, we all shot Barnes and we started packing 22 lr pistols so when they were alive when we got there we did have to use a knife. I changed to Bergers mid season and have never shot an animal a second time with them and never had one make it out of sight, all I changed was my bullet and it was a whole new world, not a single one of use still shoots Barnes which is a hard change for a Fan boy but the evidence made us change! If you have good luck with them awesome, you would be dumb to change but if they don't work why stay with them, what every a guy gets game dead the fastest and cleanest with it whats best for him!

Work great for. Like I've said before they have improved them over the years. I've tried a lot of bullets over the years, as I tested them for the shop I ran. That's why I settled on the Barnes. I don't need lead and jacket all thru the meat not even counting bloodshot meat. I don't mind if they go a hundred yards, but most drop in sight. But I will be trying the hammers this spring, for a client.

 

[bigngreen]

Hammer are awesome, they are the best mono I've put into game, extremely lethal in comparison and track better through the heavier game. I will still shoot and recommend Barnes for small game, the 110 TTSX in the 270 WSM is an excellent bullet for up to deer but I get more blood shot than I do with a 140 Berger shot from the same gun but for less recoil they work just shooting mostly elk I want more bullet.

I ran bone plates on all my grinders, copper comes out of them not lead, the lead should never make it past the breaking table, lead is easy to see in meat compared to copper frag. In any study hunting does not even make the long list of way to get lead into your system, around here you get more lead from what the deer eat around mines!!

 

[CanardNoir]

Ok this is getting a little silly..

I'm not knocking Bergers one bit but they have a certain place, and it's not shoulder shots at close range period!

I've personally seen a 155 Berger fired from a .308 win completely explode at 75 yards, my girlfriend shot a bull in the center of the shoulder with it. I had to take the rifle and run down a 3 legged elk, she felt terrible about it.
I found a piece of the jacket against the ribs, there just wasn't enough bullet left to make it into the carcass.

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who's an extremely accomplished elk hunter/Marine Sniper, and he just watched his buddy wound a cow at 300 yards with a 195 EOL from a 28 Nos.
The bullet hit center shoulder and completely blew up, leaving chunks of flesh and shrapnel all over the snow, they tracked it a half mile and finally put her down I saw the wound picture it was a mess.

It's not marketing guys.. Bonded bullets and monolithics are the only way you are going to reliably punch through a heavy shoulder bone (at close range that is).
I'm sure Bergers are more forgiving the heavier they are, 230-250 etc..

I've tested Bergers, Partitions, TSX's, Accubonds, and ELD-X bullets on wet news paper and green wood at 75 yards, I know it's not the same as real flesh but in every case the Bergers, and Accubonds blew apart and separated from the jacket.
ELD-x's were better but only penetrated 1/2 the depth of Partitions and TSX's,
don't believe me then test it yourselves but please don't take stupid advice.

If you really must make or try to make shoulder shots on large game animals - use Nosler Partitions.

 

[CanardNoir]

I've actually tested this shooting Accubonds and the correct weight Berger's and I've had the Accubonds stop on the shoulders where the Berger will make it into the chest. Frankly shooting an elk in the shoulder with any 155 gr 30 cal bullet is not all that good of an idea regardless of construction had you used a real bullet with mass would have been totally different, I've shot the 215 Berger through feet of elk and deer with my 308 and every single one has exited and crushed them.
The number of 180 gr Accubonds shot from magnums I've seen not make into the chest of an elk is rediculous, I've never had a 215 or 230 Berger stopped by an elk but I rarely target a first shot on the shoulder unless I have a good reason cause its just higher chance of having a mess vs dead elk inside a 50 yards.
Then you have some guys you could load every bullet known to man and they can't kill anything clean, I know one guy who kills elk consistently with 150 ballistic tips in a magnum and he has one spot on the shoulder he hits elk and he one shot kills everything, I look at a ballistic tip and all hell breaks loose!!

Yep. "It's not what you shoot, but where you hit, that really matters."

 

[dana bodnar]

How can you make (fabricate) an argument against "dead is dead" no matter if you get a pass through or not? I can't.

For real , I like the bullet to stay in the animal not blow out the other side but dead is dead.

 

[FIGJAM]

I agree. The biggest complaint I hear is that if the bullet doesn't pass through then the blood trail is weak or non-existent. I hunt open country out west, so a blood trail is less important to me. I can see if you hunted back east and counted on blood trails to find your animal in thick woods how a bullet that ensured you got a pass through would be valuable.