Berger close range impact

[bigngreen]

I really think actual bullet failures are rare, mostly it's an operator putting them in a position beyond their construction limits and not hitting where they need to. The nut behind the wheel has some reponcebility to have some understanding of the particular bullet, best weights, best start and impact velocity, I can't think of a single bullet that doesn't have a sweet spot and at least one if not two horrible spots, either to fast or to slow.
Jacketed bullets can and are effected by the rifling and bore, if your throat looks like lizard skin and your running hard and fast and blow a bullet does not perform correctly it's really not a bullet issue but a human issue and frankly I only feel sorry for the animals be shot!

 

[Deleted member 25294]

Ok this is getting a little silly..

I'm not knocking Bergers one bit but they have a certain place, and it's not shoulder shots at close range period!

I've personally seen a 155 Berger fired from a .308 win completely explode at 75 yards, my girlfriend shot a bull in the center of the shoulder with it. I had to take the rifle and run down a 3 legged elk, she felt terrible about it.
I found a piece of the jacket against the ribs, there just wasn't enough bullet left to make it into the carcass.

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who's an extremely accomplished elk hunter/Marine Sniper, and he just watched his buddy wound a cow at 300 yards with a 195 EOL from a 28 Nos.
The bullet hit center shoulder and completely blew up, leaving chunks of flesh and shrapnel all over the snow, they tracked it a half mile and finally put her down I saw the wound picture it was a mess.

It's not marketing guys.. Bonded bullets and monolithics are the only way you are going to reliably punch through a heavy shoulder bone (at close range that is).
I'm sure Bergers are more forgiving the heavier they are, 230-250 etc..

I've tested Bergers, Partitions, TSX's, Accubonds, and ELD-X bullets on wet news paper and green wood at 75 yards, I know it's not the same as real flesh but in every case the Bergers, and Accubonds blew apart and separated from the jacket.
ELD-x's were better but only penetrated 1/2 the depth of Partitions and TSX's,
don't believe me then test it yourselves but please don't take stupid advice.

 

[stx]

Ok this is getting a little silly..

I'm not knocking Bergers one bit but they have a certain place, and it's not shoulder shots at close range period!

I've intentionally shot whitetail and large hogs inside 100 yards broadside through the shoulder with 140 VLDs at 2730-3360 fps(6.5 CM, 6.5x284, 264 WM, 26 Nosler) to check performance and have yet to have any of these animals take a step.....and most had pass through of some sort.

 

[ajkellerusmc]

I'm thoroughly confused by this whole thread. The doe is dead. The bullet clearly expanded judging by the exit hole. Does are small thin animals. It looks to me the WSM is too much gun for whitetail at 40 yds and therefore the bullet passed through. I would say that the bullet did it's job and saying it was a failure is irroneous based on the results.

What results were you expecting?

 

[FIGJAM]

I think he might have been expecting it to blow up and instead it blew all the way through - the OPs post is pro berger.

 

[davewilson]

i'm with AJ, it's rather confusing, but i think FIG has a grip on it. my thought is why shoot a doe in the shoulder at 40 yds?

 

[Slick8]

Ok this is getting a little silly..

I'm not knocking Bergers one bit but they have a certain place, and it's not shoulder shots at close range period!

I've personally seen a 155 Berger fired from a .308 win completely explode at 75 yards, my girlfriend shot a bull in the center of the shoulder with it. I had to take the rifle and run down a 3 legged elk, she felt terrible about it.
I found a piece of the jacket against the ribs, there just wasn't enough bullet left to make it into the carcass.

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who's an extremely accomplished elk hunter/Marine Sniper, and he just watched his buddy wound a cow at 300 yards with a 195 EOL from a 28 Nos.
The bullet hit center shoulder and completely blew up, leaving chunks of flesh and shrapnel all over the snow, they tracked it a half mile and finally put her down I saw the wound picture it was a mess.

It's not marketing guys.. Bonded bullets and monolithics are the only way you are going to reliably punch through a heavy shoulder bone (at close range that is).
I'm sure Bergers are more forgiving the heavier they are, 230-250 etc..

I've tested Bergers, Partitions, TSX's, Accubonds, and ELD-X bullets on wet news paper and green wood at 75 yards, I know it's not the same as real flesh but in every case the Bergers, and Accubonds blew apart and separated from the jacket.
ELD-x's were better but only penetrated 1/2 the depth of Partitions and TSX's,
don't believe me then test it yourselves but please don't take stupid advice.

Your post has some merit but contradicts itself. You say bonded bullets are the only way to go then you say Accubonds blew apart...that's a bonded bullet.

I've shot bergers and Nos AB's extensively and like them both. Two of my favorites actuall. The AB is a good quality bonded bullet. I'd have no issue shooting an elk with one of proper weight and caliber.

 

[Deleted member 25294]

I've intentionally shot whitetail and large hogs inside 100 yards broadside through the shoulder with 140 VLDs at 2730-3360 fps(6.5 CM, 6.5x284, 264 WM, 26 Nosler) to check performance and have yet to have any of these animals take a step.....and most had pass through of some sort.

Do that to an elk and get back to me..
Actually don't an elk doesn't deserve that

 

[Slick8]

Do that to an elk and get back to me..
Actually don't an elk doesn't deserve that

Not sure how big a wild hog he's talking about shooting but a large boar of 200 pounds or more is one tough, thick skinned, heavy bonded critter. The skin alone with the thick hard fat shield is way tougher than anything else in north America.

 

[stx]

Not sure how big a wild hog he's talking about shooting but a large boar of 200 pounds or more is one tough, thick skinned, heavy bonded critter. The skin alone with the thick hard fat shield is way tougher than anything else in north America.

EXACTLY! I've also intentionally picked larger pigs specifically for the purpose of testing VLDSs.....200-300+ lbs (pic attached of one killed a couple weeks ago showing the exit hole). In over 30 years in the Hunting Business, I've seen lots of bullet performance.....Good and Bad! Until recently I used mostly Barnes from the old X bullet to the newer LRXs and still do in many rifles....but I've never seen anything kill as quickly and devastatingly as a Berger VLD! Late in this season I began to test some Hammer Bullets and have been Extremely Pleased with them, as well....will be testing more in the future!

 

[FIGJAM]

Ok this is getting a little silly..

I'm not knocking Bergers one bit but they have a certain place, and it's not shoulder shots at close range period!

I've personally seen a 155 Berger fired from a .308 win completely explode at 75 yards, my girlfriend shot a bull in the center of the shoulder with it. I had to take the rifle and run down a 3 legged elk, she felt terrible about it.
I found a piece of the jacket against the ribs, there just wasn't enough bullet left to make it into the carcass.

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who's an extremely accomplished elk hunter/Marine Sniper, and he just watched his buddy wound a cow at 300 yards with a 195 EOL from a 28 Nos.
The bullet hit center shoulder and completely blew up, leaving chunks of flesh and shrapnel all over the snow, they tracked it a half mile and finally put her down I saw the wound picture it was a mess.

It's not marketing guys.. Bonded bullets and monolithics are the only way you are going to reliably punch through a heavy shoulder bone (at close range that is).
I'm sure Bergers are more forgiving the heavier they are, 230-250 etc..

I've tested Bergers, Partitions, TSX's, Accubonds, and ELD-X bullets on wet news paper and green wood at 75 yards, I know it's not the same as real flesh but in every case the Bergers, and Accubonds blew apart and separated from the jacket.
ELD-x's were better but only penetrated 1/2 the depth of Partitions and TSX's,
don't believe me then test it yourselves but please don't take stupid advice.

I shot a 5pt bull at 65ish yards with a 115gr berger out of a 25-06. It busted the front should and appeared to have blown up in the vitals - we found bits and pieces and a bunch of mush up in there. I am not discounting your experience, just sharing one of my own - I have been messing around with the eldxs recently and am turning into a fan.

 

[SilverbulletMAG]

The S.D. between these bullets in different weights and calibers will play a huge role in different results folks have as well...

 

[Earlybugle]

Help me understand something. I've been a very successful, serious hunter for over 40 years. Yes I'm an old guy but I believe I've kept up with the times and current technologies - loving both old and modern cartridges, and a lot of the modern projectiles. Many years of analysis and experience taught me to match bullet construction with the game, AND also to the expected impact velocities. (impact velocities of about 2800 fps are an important threshold) What I don't understand is why for so many hunters, DRT is the model of perfection for hunting bullet performance? A quick death - yes for sure! A short blood trail - you bet! But why and when did it become acceptable to waste the off-side front quarter just so that you have no blood trail? I definitely understand and agree with the use of frangible bullets for truly extended range shots. I'm on board with that. I don't understand why so many of us are using frangible bullets in fast cartridges, knowing their show will be well inside of 200 yds, with the significant meat loss s an acceptable rice to pay for DRT, …. the apex of hunting craft.

Pssstt - by the way, DRT is easily achieved with fast cartridges using many of the more traditional bonded and partitioned lead core, and mono's at those closer ranges by putting the round a bit high through the scapula (and lungs).

 

[bigngreen]

Do that to an elk and get back to me..
Actually don't an elk doesn't deserve that

I've actually tested this shooting Accubonds and the correct weight Berger's and I've had the Accubonds stop on the shoulders where the Berger will make it into the chest. Frankly shooting an elk in the shoulder with any 155 gr 30 cal bullet is not all that good of an idea regardless of construction had you used a real bullet with mass would have been totally different, I've shot the 215 Berger through feet of elk and deer with my 308 and every single one has exited and crushed them.
The number of 180 gr Accubonds shot from magnums I've seen not make into the chest of an elk is rediculous, I've never had a 215 or 230 Berger stopped by an elk but I rarely target a first shot on the shoulder unless I have a good reason cause its just higher chance of having a mess vs dead elk inside a 50 yards.
Then you have some guys you could load every bullet known to man and they can't kill anything clean, I know one guy who kills elk consistently with 150 ballistic tips in a magnum and he has one spot on the shoulder he hits elk and he one shot kills everything, I look at a ballistic tip and all hell breaks loose!!