Belted vs. non-belted for accuracy.

[J E Custom]

Actually, if you fire form a belted case and only neck size, you no longer have a belted case in reality because the case, head spaces on the shoulder and the same rules that apply to non belted cases now apply to the belted case.

The belt becomes non functional if sized this way. so you can full length size the belted case and it will function the way it was designed, or you can neck size only and it negates the function of the belt and acts just like a non belted case because when fired, the case moves back to take up the few thousandths headspace and the front of the belt no longer comes in contact with the chamber belt recess and now has zero head space because the shoulder is the new contact point.

When I head space belted cartridges that I intend to size the necks only
I wont go over .002 thousandths for head space. For dangerous game I like .002 to .003 and full length size for trouble free chambering.

Just my way

J E CUSTOM

 

[Rifleman97]

J E Custom
I agree that after fireforming it's essentially a shoulder headspaced cartridge, however in magnums where you don't have a lot of barrel life, I personally don't want to have to shoot rounds just to fireform them. That's to me like getting cheap tires but doing a burnout before you take off from a red light to get the traction of a better designed tire. You speed up the degradation of something. Sure you know you're gonna have to replace the barrel as it is like tires, but why speed up the process if you could just have a non belted round and not have to fireform them?
Just my opinon, I'm not totally against belted rounds, they have their purpose in slick feeding and also with mostly straight cases with not a whole lot of shoulder, but the 300 Win mag and 7 rem mag would have been just as successful if Winchester and Remington removed the belts from their designs. Instead of having to fireform and then headspace from the shoulder, why didn't they just headspace from the shoulder to begin with?

 

[MudRunner2005]

J E Custom
I agree that after fireforming it's essentially a shoulder headspaced cartridge, however in magnums where you don't have a lot of barrel life, I personally don't want to have to shoot rounds just to fireform them. That's to me like getting cheap tires but doing a burnout before you take off from a red light to get the traction of a better designed tire. You speed up the degradation of something. Sure you know you're gonna have to replace the barrel as it is like tires, but why speed up the process if you could just have a non belted round and not have to fireform them?
Just my opinon, I'm not totally against belted rounds, they have their purpose in slick feeding and also with mostly straight cases with not a whole lot of shoulder, but the 300 Win mag and 7 rem mag would have been just as successful if Winchester and Remington removed the belts from their designs. Instead of having to fireform and then headspace from the shoulder, why didn't they just headspace from the shoulder to begin with?

You don't have to, the first time you shoot that case that is headspaced off the belt, it fire-forms to the chamber. From then-on you have a fire-formed case. No need to waste time fire-forming, just let it happen the first time you shoot them.

 

[J E Custom]

J E Custom
I agree that after fireforming it's essentially a shoulder headspaced cartridge, however in magnums where you don't have a lot of barrel life, I personally don't want to have to shoot rounds just to fireform them. That's to me like getting cheap tires but doing a burnout before you take off from a red light to get the traction of a better designed tire. You speed up the degradation of something. Sure you know you're gonna have to replace the barrel as it is like tires, but why speed up the process if you could just have a non belted round and not have to fireform them?
Just my opinon, I'm not totally against belted rounds, they have their purpose in slick feeding and also with mostly straight cases with not a whole lot of shoulder, but the 300 Win mag and 7 rem mag would have been just as successful if Winchester and Remington removed the belts from their designs. Instead of having to fireform and then headspace from the shoulder, why didn't they just headspace from the shoulder to begin with?

As Mud said what I call fire forming is Any time I fire a new case in a chamber it fire forms to the exact chamber dimensions. Fire forming doesn't mean it has to be a wildcat, it just means that the case now fits the chamber. Like you, I prefer not to shoot any unnecessary times so I load all cartridges for hunting accuracy and then adjust my sizing to suit the needs of its use and the type of case to be sized.

Just because we neck size belted cases, doesn't Necessarily mean they will shoot better every time so we have to test and see. two of my most accurate rifles are belted and One is head spaced off the belt and the other one uses the shoulder. And as a results, I don't have an accuracy preference between the belt and shouldered case. Both types are capable of great accuracy.

In fact, the same thing happens to a shouldered case the first time it's fired and uses up the head space. the shoulder moves forward and the case becomes longer than it was before firing. Sizing is essentially the same unless you want to continue using the belt.

Hope that clears what I call fire forming up.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Calamity]

In my opinion, belted cases make more sense than non-belted ones if case fit and alignment is paramount for accuracy. The belt does not get set back during reloading, and the case position in the chamber does not depend on the contact point of an angle interface that can be affected by lubricant in a sizing die. Before the advent of large rimless cases, I never heard a disparaging word about belted cases. The belt is simply a rim set forward. If there is a problem with head separation in belted cases, rimmed cases must have the same problem. If there is a difference, then it is one that belted case makers can remedy by beefing up the internal dimensions of the case. Again, for decades of use, no one, to my knowledge, expressed any of the recently claimed problems with reloading belted cases. Are case makers skimping on brass, using poorer alloys, or is it just another fad gripe in the era of popular griping?

 

[bomberodevil]

The best part of seeing 10-15 year old zombie posts pop up is maybe getting a piece of wisdom from JE Custom. Man, that guy was dead on with his advice so many times, and a true gentleman in his manners. I truly miss his input.

 

[VLD Pilot]

While watching a David Tubb video recently, he stated that one of the reasons a 6-284 is an accurate round is because it is not a "belted case". Because David didn't, can someone here possibly explain how the belt on a magnum case causes decreased accuracy?

Zero difference in accuracy.

 

[btap1991]

I don't think anyone will be able to do it. I hate to appear to disagree with "David Tubb", but I don't think it makes a hill of beans whether a cartridge is belted or not from an accuracy perspective; when comparing cartridges of equivalent capacity.

Maybe I'm wrong, someone will certainly straighten me out if I am.

AJ

I think your right although tubb is great their ate
Plenty of accurate belted mags
I think barrel, bullet, powder, make a bigger difference in accuracy then belted can non belted

 

[gator378]

I don't think anyone will be able to do it. I hate to appear to disagree with "David Tubb", but I don't think it makes a hill of beans whether a cartridge is belted or not from an accuracy perspective; when comparing cartridges of equivalent capacity.

Maybe I'm wrong, someone will certainly straighten me out if I am.

AJ

On my 300 Weatherby I headspace on the shoulder. Eliminated case separations.

 

[Gregg C]

Old thread, yes. Still pertinent, yes.
Aside from accuracy non-issue of one over the other, I believe the belt to add another layer of protection between a very energetic event and my face.
I recently locked up my 338-378 Weatherby. A rookie mistake I made, a 20% overcharge, was the cause. Separate issue.
Upon examination, the bottom of the belt flowed into the intersection of the bolt face and barrel end. And of course, EVERTHING involved is bigger around in diameter.
Got lucky? Oh, yeah. I can't help but believe that the BELT helped with that luck.