Bedding the Recoil Lug.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Centre Punch, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone,
    A friend and myself were discussing the ins and outs of a bedding job, when he asked me why the recoil lug on a Rem 700 is clearenced on the front, sides and bottom in most instructions, yet we have come across bedding jobs Where the recoil lug is completely bedded. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    I explained that i think the clearenced method is correct and is done so for expansion purposes when the action and chamber warm after up several firings, am i right? i dont know, can anybody explain the reason for the clearence and if it is the correct way to do the job. Thanks a lot.

    Ian.
     
  2. demarpaint

    demarpaint Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I explained that i think the clearenced method is correct and is done so for expansion purposes when the action and chamber warm after up several firings, am i right? i dont know, can anybody explain the reason for the clearence and if it is the correct way to do the job.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You have the idea! If there is no clearence the recoil lug will expand upon heating and could force itself upward causing stress and all kinds of funny things to POI once hot. The clearence also makes it easier to remove the barreled action if needed.

    Frank D
     
  3. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    I relieve the front and bottom of the recoil lug area when bedding. I leave the back and side area intact as I believe these are the areas doing the work I desire. I don't want the rifle moving to the rear nor do I want it to torque in the stock.
     
  4. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    I fully bed the recoil lugs on all my rifles. So far, no issue with accuracy as things heat up. I bed because I want that action to be a glove fit in the stock. Also, to remove any loads on the action screws.

    If I leave clearance around the recoil lug on a round bottom receiver, I place torque and shifting loads on the action screw. All you are doing is making sure the recoil lug is sitting on a flat surface. The lug is not working to its full potential.

    If this is the goal, don't bother bedding the lug at all. Just make sure the lug is flush against the rear of its mortise. The Savage plastic stocks are inletted this way and work quite well. With strong pillars, the recoil loads are placed on the action screws and these pillars. I don't like it so bed the lug fully.

    If the pillars are not a tight fit on the screws, shifting can and will occur as the bedding wears. This can lead to flyers and irritating issues.

    Action expansion is so small even when things get toasty. I doubt few will shoot until the action can burn your skin. At that point, it is still 'cold' by metal standards. Accuracy has already gone south due to barrel warping. I don't think stress in the bedding/action would be a concern.

    I feel that gunsmiths like the idea of not fully bedding because it is a royal pain to take apart. Plus with many using pillars as part of their bedding, at added cost, there has been no issue with accuracy. Not until rd counts get up there.

    I want pillars to stop the crushing of the stock. I want the recoil lug to handle all recoil loads of the action. A little extra effort for a solid fit me thinks...

    Jerry
     
  5. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jerry,
    Your explaination makes a whole lot a sense to me, but there are still a few areas of confusion. My buddy is in the process of bedding his Remmy into a prototype composite stock and instrucions we have downloaded from the net, especially those by, may i say: Darrel Holland and Gale Mcmillan both advocate the clearence on the front, sides and bottom of the recoil lug. They both also recomend clearence on the action screws in the pillars and emphasize strongly that there must not be any contact between the action screws and the pillars. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    To me this would allow the action to move forward to certain degree, which cant be good for accuracy
    I remember that the Stolle action in my bench gun was fully bedded all around with no detriment to accuracy.

    Any more information would help enormously as we want to finnish the bedding this week. Thanks.

    Ian.
     
  6. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    I agree that there must be some clearance between the action screws and the pillars/screw holes. Recoiling on the screws is probably not a good idea, just take a look at the split M98 stocks that are around (Interarms are fairly commonly split at the palm stock from recoiling on the rear action screw).
     
  7. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    I bet that somewhere in those instructions, they also need you to torque the hell out of your action screws during install. 65 in/lbs comes to mind.

    Personally, this is not how I would do the bedding and doesn't make any sense to me. But then I don't see much use in the inletting in most fancy alum chassis stocks either.

    Something has to hold that action in place. Either the recoil lug or action screws are going to bear the load. There is nothing else hanging below to stop movement during fire. I certainly don't think the trigger group is much use.

    The style of bedding that you described requires that friction be what holds things together. That is why many of these tactical stocks and gunsmiths want you to torque down the action screws.

    This leads to movement, eventually, inconsistencies because things move, and excessive wear. It can also lead to bent actions. Every alum chassis stock I have worked on bent the action during install. The worse bent the action 1/8"!!!!

    To check, put your hand on top of the action and tighten/loose the action screw. Feel any movement? I bet you do. If you can feel something, that is a lot of movement. So much for accurized, trued and lapped action.

    I want all loads to go through that recoil lug. I want it to be secure in all three axis. I want little to no load on the action screws (having space around the screws in the pillars is not a bad idea but really doesn't matter if the recoil lug takes the loads).

    I don't need to torque down those action screws. With the way I do it, the screws go from loose to full hand tight in 1/2 rotation. I know everything is locked down and will not move under fire. The action screws don't go loose during use and I don't need any loctite to make that happen.

    The bedding jobs I have done have made EVERY rifle more consistent and improved accuracy on most. The biggest benefactors where those rifles that were bedded as you described.

    But then I don't get excited about 1/2" groups at 100yds. At 200 and 300yds, now you get my attention.

    Jerry
     
  8. longtooth

    longtooth Well-Known Member

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    I must agree with Jerry Teo I want the recoil taken up by the recoil lug (a hardened ground lug if possible)my experience is the same as his with the improvement in accuracy over those with clearance in front and sides. It does make it a little harder to remove the action from the stock.
     
  9. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    I think the friction between the action and bedding keeps the receiver from moving forward in the stock any, but Dave King may have a good point about bedding the sides to assist in resisting tourque. I think the bottom and front being relieved are the two most important though but still I relieve the sides as well.
     
  10. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Thans a lot for your opinions guys, much appreciated.
    My buddy and i will chew it over a little more before making a final decission.

    Ian.

    PS. Kirby, if you are reading this your opinions would be appreciated as well.
     
  11. Agunner012

    Agunner012 Well-Known Member

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    Great info Jerry!

    So let me get this straight. You would put release agent on the action and recoil lug, but no tape on the lug? You want as tight a fit as possible? How difficult is removing the barreled action? Does the bedding chip around the lug at any point? I like the idea of the extreme tight fit.

    Thanks
    Andrew
     
  12. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Yes, you put lots of release agent on that recoil lug. Removing can be a pain (why most don't like doing it). I like to take the rifle apart when the epoxy is around 90% hardened. Clean everything up. Put some grease on the lug and reinstall. This makes it easier to remove after the final cure. No the grease does not rot the epoxy. In fact, I put a light film of grease on the lug at all times and have done so for years. I use a synthetic grease with zero problems.

    The bedding does chip away sometimes during removal. That will not affect the overall fit or function of the bedding. The vast majority of surface area is in proper contact so a few small spaces really doesn't change anything.

    Second way is something I just started doing. In some hardware stores, you can find an epoxy steel in a two tube syringe that cures in only 10min. I put a bit in the recoil lug recess and some in the rear lug area. Reassemble. The epoxy sets in no time. Take a part easily.

    Now put release agent on everthing again. Use a slower cure epoxy and do the final bedding. Voila, easy removal the next day.

    I have used the fast cure epoxy to do the whole job but if its a complicated fit, you will run out of time.

    By the way, I also don't believe in the myth that you have to bed the full length of the action. I sometimes bed just the ends leaving the mag area unbedded. NO problems.

    The most important thing is to make sure that recoil lug, front of the receiver to the mag well and 1 to 1.5" of barrel are fully bedded and supported stress free. The rear lug must also be well done. With something like a Savage, the central bolt location can make bedding tricky but must be done well and stress free.

    Enjoy your new found accuracy...

    Jerry
     
  13. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Hey Jerry,
    My buddy has decided to use your method and completely bed the recoil lug, which we think is the best method.
    The stock he is working on is the first to pop out of a mould developed and manufactured by another of our shooting buddies.
    The complete rig is a LH 308 VS which will have its first outing with the new stock at the beginning of june, a full report and pictures will be forthcoming.

    Ian.
     
  14. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    All the best of luck and look for your report. Just make sure that when you tighten those screws, the action is not flexed. That will negate any benefits of bedding.

    When finished, the action should fall into the bedding with a klunk and no wiggle or move in any direction. When the screws are tightened, the action does not flex or move.

    Sometimes, it takes a few trys. Nice to see someone take the time to make a mold. How are you filling the foreend and buttstock? What are you using for the bedding area?

    Jerry