Bear Defense

We had a guy in camp with us about three years ago during a Wyoming elk hunt who was mauled by a grizz. It happened so fast that he only had the opportunity to get one shot off from his 300 WM...round ended up in the dirt. Luckily, he survived with a few lacerations, punctures and a couple of broken ribs.
 
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You are a bit naive to think you would ever get 5 shots off out of a rifle on a charging grizzly. One maybe two is more realistic and if the bear isn't dead he just knocked the rifle from your hands and inflicted some serious injury. At this point, having a handgun is your last chance, again you might only get one shot, maybe two. You could get real lucky and hit the spinal column and then you would go around bragging about how you won the fight with a griz, but if you are not so lucky, the bear wins and you may or may not get another chance to think how you would do things differently the next time.

OooooooooohKay!

While I've never been charged by any bear, I'd keep shooting my rifle. If I were able to get off only 2 rounds before the bear were on me, how do you think I'd be able to reach for a handgun?

I've seen what a 7MM Rem Mag will do to HUGE elk. I'm skeptical of anyone trying to tell me that at torso or thorax hit of a 7MM Rem Mag to a griz won't slow it down if not outright kill it.

There are pretty darn powerful handgun rounds. Just a few can shoot them. Even fewer can shoot them with accurate follow-up shots. Hence, a hunter might be carrying a 5 pound de facto single shot handgun. I'll go with a rifle.

I'm good with your carrying a handgun all day long.

Before you go there, please allow me to caution you to not attempt to refute a rule by citing an exception. That'd be logical fallacy. "Yeah, well, I know a guy who knew a guy whose cousin was married to a truck driver who picked up a hitchhiker whose sister was mauled by a 200 pound black bear after it took 10 solid hits from a .375 H&H Magnum. She finally killed it with a .22 LR revolver."
 
Hi FEENIX,

I have read conflicting research on bear spray. From memory alone, bear spray was tested on captive grizzlies that were caged, which had the tendency to confound results. Also, the bears were not in an aggressive charge.

The problem I see with spray is shouldering a rifle to grab bear spray and deploying it against a charging bear. Would one have time to accomplish this process? If wind is blowing in the hunter's direction, he risks become debilitated by bear spray. What if doesn't work and his rifle is shouldered?

I am not sure I'd have time to even think about grabbing bear spray were a bear charging me. My instinct would be to not surrender the tactical advantage of the immediacy of my rifle to grab and deploy bear spray.

I hope I'm never charged by a bear that wants to kill me.
 
Hi FEENIX,

I have read conflicting research on bear spray. From memory alone, bear spray was tested on captive grizzlies that were caged, which had the tendency to confound results. Also, the bears were not in an aggressive charge.

The problem I see with spray is shouldering a rifle to grab bear spray and deploying it against a charging bear. Would one have time to accomplish this process? If wind is blowing in the hunter's direction, he risks become debilitated by bear spray. What if doesn't work and his rifle is shouldered?

I am not sure I'd have time to even think about grabbing bear spray were a bear charging me. My instinct would be to not surrender the tactical advantage of the immediacy of my rifle to grab and deploy bear spray.

I hope I'm never charged by a bear that wants to kill me.

Check out my post as suggested by Rick Richard above.
 
I've never hunted in grizz country and am likely to not ever. This isn't because i'm so afraid that i wouldn't; rather the species i'm interested in eating is found within my state.

However, coming from a self-defense background as well as CQB training and specific handgun training I am fairly confident in my thoughts/opinions if i did venture into grizz/Kodiak brown country.

In every fight or emergency incident i've encountered (whether in LE or whatever) time seemingly slows down as our minds are racing at nanospeed. In retrospect it always seems like i/we could have reacted faster, etc.

What is forgotten in these scenarios is that while the opponent/aggressor seems to be moving slowly - so am I.

These situations happen so fast and unexpectedly that putting a long rifle or shotgun onto the target is much less likely to be successful than a handgun.

For many years I have been a strong advocate of using bear spray as i've seen/read of incidents by survivors, but of late I'm also reading the ineffectiveness of even appropriately employed bear spray.

This is caused me to re-consider the value of the firearms training i've had over the decades.

An easily/quickly deployed powerful handgun is probably the best line of defense in these extreme situations. Someone who trains regularly or at least semi-regularly in "Point Shooting" techniques with a powerful handgun would be the best prepared for these explosively fast incidents.

Training in such a manner is something most people simply will not do.

It's challenging enough to convince the average "Elmer Fudd" to practice with their hunting rifle....let alone adding another firearm that needs to be learned and using a technique that is not intended for precision. But that is exactly what will save someones life.
 
Good Morning, FEENIX,

For some reason, probably a security setting on my MacBook, I can't access your link.

I have read this article a while ago: https://www.outsideonline.com/1899301/shoot-or-spray-best-way-stop-charging-bear

From a perspective of valid, scientific research, it would be impossible to test a hypothesis of bear spray efficacy on charging, wild bears. It would risk lives of researchers. Hence, bear spray efficacy was inferential. The problem with declaring bear spray efficacy when it has been used on charging bears and they've ceased their charges is eliminating all confounding factors leaving only bear spray as causal. That might be a deadly assumption.

Lots of what is purported to be wildlife science is nothing more than SWAGS. How could scientists configure control and experimental groups? They can't.

Hikers used to be told to play dead when attacked by black bears. Some 20 years ago, National Geographic said that was an invalid tactic. National Geographic said that when a black bear attacks, it intends to kill. A griz might charge to bluff. National Geographic said that a male black bear in heat is the most dangerous land mammal in North America. National Geographic advised to fight back any way one can if one is attacked by a black bear.

I was told by fishermen that to this day, Alaskan guides carry 12 gauge shotguns to protect their fishermen from bear attacks. While they might carry bear spray (assuredly legally mandated), guides rely on 12 gauge slugs.

We fish in the Eastern Sierra where there are more black bears than people. We've seen huge black bears in the Eastern Sierra, some easily breaking the 450 pound mark. That's because they have endless supplies of food.

Our primary bear strategy is avoidance. If avoidance assures surviving a gunfight, it's gotta be a viable tactic for bear country survival. If a bear meanders into our fishing spot, my kids get behind me and we back out leaving the bear to fish. If a bear is in a sport we want to fish, he gets it, and we'll go to another.

I've taught my kids, even my adult son, that they are to get behind me and we'll back out.

I have never carried bear spray. As far as I know, it's still not required where we fish.

Eastern Sierra black bears are used to humans. Some are aggressive. The sheriff or fish & game will kill aggressive bears.

Closing in on 20 years ago, a game warden friend who's now in Heaven told me to carry my old duty gun while fishing in the Eastern Sierra. I asked him if there were criminals roaming the wilds of the Eastern Sierra. He said there were, but he had intended black bear defense. At that time my son was about 8 years old. He told me that if a black bear killed me while I tried to protect my son, my son would become easy prey for it. He told me that a .357 Mag revolver works well on black bear.

My dominant fear when fishing with my kids in black bear country is that bears raid fish cleaning stations. They are used to associating the smell of fish with food. Were my kids and I to suddenly cross paths with a bear and it smells trout all over us, will it charge us thinking we're on its dining menu? Not knowing the answer means I must be prepared to protect my kids. I do not want to kill a bear. However, I have a much more dominant desire to protect my kids.

Even though I'm on the fence with bear spray, I'd carry it, especially if it were required. But I'd still carry a suitable handgun. Pepper spray works beyond excellent on humans. However, humans under the influence of drugs, especially PCP, will probably not respond to pepper spray. Further, 10% of human beings are immune from pepper spray. Pepper spray can never be used where wind is blowing in a cop's face. It will leave him defenseless and at the mercy of a bad guy he wants to arrest.

A few years ago, we saw a huge black bear in the parking lot of June Lake Marina. We were waiting for sunrise. My then 10 year old daughter was asleep next to me. The public bathroom was across the parking lot. If she had awakened and asked to use the bathroom, I'd of said, "Sure. I'll keep and eye on you," not knowing there was a huge bear some 30 yards from her. From that frightening thought on, I have carried a handgun when fishing in bear country with my kids; however, avoidance is our primary strategy.

Were a black bear to charge my kids and me, I'd instinctively draw my gun. I've had muscle memory drilled into my brain for twenty years. It can't be purged. Moreover, since I'd only shoot a charging bear that has made its intentions clear to me, I won't have time to deploy bear spray. I'm hoping I'd have time to draw my handgun.

There are lots of opinions on best bear defense handguns. Some handgun cartridges are more powerful than some rifle cartridges. However, very few shooters can fire accurate .44 Mag follow-up rounds. I used to won a Model 629. My intent was to get good enough to hunt deer with it. The reality was I had to shoot it at least once once a month to get good enough to hunt with it. From experience, there was no way I was able to fire rapid follow-up shots with a 6" .44 Mag. So I gave up that idea and sold it.

The .357 Mag is the most powerful revolver than I can shoot with accurate follow up shots. I'd rather hit a charging black bear with 6 180 grain .357 Mag rounds than with 1 .44 Mag round and five others which would be fired in prayer of hitting a charging bear.

I've hunted in griz country, although I've never seen one. I never carry a handgun while hunting with a rifle. A hunting friend of mine told me that should a griz continue to charge after taking 4 7MM Rem Mag rounds, I'd be better off reloading my rifle than reaching for a handgun. He has killed a griz in Alaska with 2 rounds of a .300 Wby Mag. He said that the reality is a 7MM Rem Mag will stop a griz if my rounds hit it in a vulnerable area. Griz always attack on their hind legs leaving a good shot at its head and neck area. But I'd much rather avoid.

To my way of looking at handguns, the Model 1911A1 is the most comfortable handgun to carry. 9 230 grain +P rounds with 8 more ready to go within a couple of seconds is hard to beat. Even better, they can be fired extremely rapidly and with accuracy. I've read that Colt has reintroduced its Delta Elite. 9 200 grain 10MM rounds would be pretty darn formidable. But I'm not such that the 10MM would be better than a .45 ACP with 9 230 grain +P rounds. Like all things guns, it boils down to preference. What's right for one might be all wrong for another. Moreover, there is a small percent of hand gunners who can rapidly fire large caliber revolvers.

Take care mi amigo
 
To my way of looking at handguns, the Model 1911A1 is the most comfortable handgun to carry. 9 230 grain +P rounds with 8 more ready to go within a couple of seconds is hard to beat. Even better, they can be fired extremely rapidly and with accuracy. I've read that Colt has reintroduced its Delta Elite. 9 200 grain 10MM rounds would be pretty darn formidable. But I'm not such that the 10MM would be better than a .45 ACP with 9 230 grain +P rounds. Like all things guns, it boils down to preference. What's right for one might be all wrong for another. Moreover, there is a small percent of hand gunners who can rapidly fire large caliber revolvers.

Take care mi amigo

There is some great info and wisdom in the section i did not include (do not choose a handgun you cannot manage accurately - sage advise).

Incidentally, full-power 10mm Auto loads exceed the power of the .357 Magnum and closely approximate the .41 Magnum.

A Glock 20 that holds 15 in the mag and one in the pipe PLUS another mag if enough time is available (not likely in a full-on bear charge) is a lot of firepower which can be quickly deployed.

A Glock 20 with a magazine full of full-power loads would be my backup weapon of choice for Grizz country.
 
Several years ago while elk hunting in Grizzly country of Wyoming, my hunting partner, an active Wyoming State Trooper at the time and I ventured into a drainage that was full of Grizzly sign. We were very careful to say the least. We got into some very good elk sign,but time ran out and we had to head home. This was on a Saturday. The following Saturday I went back to the same area that we had heard elk bugling. I found a dark carcass half covered in the 10 inches of snow on the ground. I approached very carefully thinking the carcass was a moose. Upon reaching the carcass, I couldn't tell what the animal was. I moved the carcass and found small ears, very dark hair, no skull and no paws, it was a dead grizzly bear! I called my Trooper buddy and had him contact Wyoming Game and Fish. A few hours later a game warden came to my camp and told me that the bear was killed after charging a hunter and ruled a good shoot.

Last year while elk hunting in the same area, I was telling this story around a campfire with a couple of fellow hunters, one of the hunters piped up and said, "That was me that shot that bear, " she was walking through a meadow and then without warning charged, the hunter ducked behind a tree and fired one shot from a 300 winchester magnum striking and instantly killing the bear. The bear was less than 5 feet away when the fatal shot was fired.
 
While bow hunting, I carried a Titanium 44 special with +p loads because of weight and knock down.
I am a big 10 mm fan but the revolver is more dependable even though it doesn't have as many shots. If I was not walking far or doing a lot of climbing, I prefer the 454 pistol with 300 grain bullets.

I hope I never find out if this is the best choices.

J E CUSTOM
 
Hi FEENIX,

I have read conflicting research on bear spray. From memory alone, bear spray was tested on captive grizzlies that were caged, which had the tendency to confound results. Also, the bears were not in an aggressive charge.

The problem I see with spray is shouldering a rifle to grab bear spray and deploying it against a charging bear. Would one have time to accomplish this process? If wind is blowing in the hunter's direction, he risks become debilitated by bear spray. What if doesn't work and his rifle is shouldered?

I am not sure I'd have time to even think about grabbing bear spray were a bear charging me. My instinct would be to not surrender the tactical advantage of the immediacy of my rifle to grab and deploy bear spray.

I hope I'm never charged by a bear that wants to kill me.

Likewise!

Sorry I missed this and that you can't open the link. Not sure about the security setting or MacBook but it works on my wife's iPad.

Cheers!

Ed
 
Has anybody ever tried to quickly draw from a holster and rapid fire (with a heavy+long double action trigger pull) a powerful handgun?

I'm not talking about a 454 Casull or 460 Mag or 500 Mag even. Something reasonable like a 44 Mag.

I shoot some IDPA and local 3 Gun stuff. So I'm not unpracticed with shooting a handgun quickly.

I am also a fairly decent long'ish range handgun shot. I practice at 50 yards free hand a few times a year.

In the real world you would not be mentally prepared 100% of the time to draw and fire. But even in a range environment when we were already mentally prepared to draw and fire quickly, everyone that tried that day with the 44 Mag just honestly sucked.

Shooting at a silhouette sized target at a mere 10 yards, you will be surprised how often you miss. You would be surprised how often you can miss at 5 yards even. And our target wasn't moving... And we knew where to point and aim beforehand... And again, we were already mentally prepared to draw and fire quickly.

You may say that a bear is larger than a silhouette sized target. But you would still need decent shot placement to stop a big grizzly.


After all of that rambling I guess what I'm trying to point out is I bet we all suck much more than we give ourselves credit for in regards to shooting a powerful double action revolver quickly.

I don't live in grizzly country but if I did I would probably find the best deal I could on a no frills but reliable double barrel rifle in like 458 Win Mag or something and then do the paperwork to SBR it. It wouldn't weigh anymore than a magnum revolver and at least then you would have a shoulder fired rifle in a serious cartridge. You could probably even get it to fit into a holster for one of those Rossi Ranch Hands.


Edit: ****!t, now I'm thinking about another firearm I don't really need. :D
 
:D:)I agree Eng40! My concept of a handgun on bear is a big IF...IF I can get to it while he is mauling the devil out of me I "might" get a round or two in him, ha! In that scenario, a good sharp knife may still be the best! I am amazed at just how "fast" that bear can get on a man...the term "quick as a cat" comes to mind! Whew!
 
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